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Author Topic:   Satcomm and Nixon
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 17 (31087)
02-02-2003 8:43 PM


Didn't eant this to get lost since the meandering thread was lost, so I am reposting here.
Allison wrote: Hell, Dick Nixon would have had to be a Democrat if he was alive today because he would have been way to "liberal" on the environment.
quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
You aren't sure what I mean??
Nixon created the Environmental Protection Agency!
He also created the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), and the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
He was also the first president to require strict quotas for minorities for federal construction projects.
He also made an anti-ballistic missle treaty with the Soviet Union.
Compared to the Republicans today, Ol' Dick Nixon sounds like a regular left-wing Socialist, doesn't he?
He created government agencies to protect the environment, worker safety, and consumer safety. All of these programs primarily benefit individual citizens and make things more difficult for business.
Nixon was considered a pretty conservative Republican in his day, yet look at what he did? Seems like "conservative Republican" means something very different today.
THIS is why I say that there is no meaningful "left" voice in this country today. Most Democrats are centrist and most Republicans are pretty far-Right.
The idea that the mainstream media does anything but go along to get along is silly. They do what they can to MAKE MONEY, and tends to make them be more about feel-good entertainment than in challenging the status quo or doing any real investigative journalism.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-02-2003]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by jdean33442, posted 02-03-2003 1:55 AM nator has replied

  
jdean33442
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 17 (31104)
02-03-2003 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
02-02-2003 8:43 PM


quote:
Nixon created the Environmental Protection Agency!
The head of the EPA disagrees with you. Here is his own words:
http://www.epa.gov/history/publications/ruck/07.htm
quote:
He also created the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), and the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
OSHA was created under the Occupational Safety and Health Act, a bipartisan measure enacted on Dec. 29, 1970, and signed by President Richard M. Nixon. How did Nixon "create" OSHA?
quote:
He was also the first president to require strict quotas for minorities for federal construction projects.
Why are you citing this? I suppose the entire right wing is rascist?
quote:
He also made an anti-ballistic missle treaty with the Soviet Union.
Lyndon B. Johnson and Defense Secretary McNamara propose strict limits on ABM systems to the USSR during a joint summit in New Jersey, 1967. The USSR refused the proposal.
Later that year Defense Secretary McNamara announces the US decision to deploy Sentinel, a thin ABM system.
1969, President Nixon announces the Safeguard system, a re-orginization of the current Sentinel system. Changing it from a thin system to a fully functional ABM system.
The USSR and the US begin the Strategic Arms Limitations Talks, a few months later.
1972, Nixon signs the ABM treaty with the USSR.
Johnson proposed the idea, not Nixon. The Soviets got scared and decided to talk after, and only after, Nixon announced the Safeguard system.
quote:
Compared to the Republicans today, Ol' Dick Nixon sounds like a regular left-wing Socialist, doesn't he?
No, he doesn't, however, you do.
quote:
THIS is why I say that there is no meaningful "left" voice in this country today. Most Democrats are centrist and most Republicans are pretty far-Right.
I agree. The left IS meaningless. Everything is going to be far right when you reside in the extreme left.
quote:
The idea that the mainstream media does anything but go along to get along is silly. They do what they can to MAKE MONEY, and tends to make them be more about feel-good entertainment than in challenging the status quo or doing any real investigative journalism.
We are a nation based on capitalism. What did you expect? Journalism is reporting facts, not challenging whatever is popular. Your romantic view of journalism is naive.
Do me a favor and forward this post to whatever left wing propaganda rag that spoonfed you this bunk information in hope they will revise their "facts" to reflect the truth.
Are you going to tell me Reagan was a Communist spy next?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 02-02-2003 8:43 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 02-03-2003 12:52 PM jdean33442 has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 3 of 17 (31143)
02-03-2003 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jdean33442
02-03-2003 1:55 AM


quote:
The head of the EPA disagrees with you. Here is his own words:
quote:
He created EPA for much the same reason Reagan invited me to return to the agency in 1983: because of public outrage about what was happening to the environment. Not because Nixon shared that concern, but because he didn't have any choice.
Regardless, he still created the EPA, just like I said he did.
quote:
OSHA was created under the Occupational Safety and Health Act, a bipartisan measure enacted on Dec. 29, 1970, and signed by President Richard M. Nixon. How did Nixon "create" OSHA?
He made it happen. Can you see any Republican president signing a big government program like that into existence today?
quote:
Allison wrote: He was also the first president to require strict quotas for minorities for federal construction projects.
quote:
Why are you citing this? I suppose the entire right wing is rascist?
No, I am citing it to show that, even though he was considered a conservative Republican in his day, no one calling themselves a conservative Republican TODAY would ever do such a thing, thus demonstrating the shift to the right in recent years of conservative Republicans.
I really wish you would pay attention.
quote:
Johnson proposed the idea, not Nixon. The Soviets got scared and decided to talk after, and only after, Nixon announced the Safeguard system.
My point was, and is, as I stated above, that a conservative Republican these days would probably not be signing any anti-missile treaties with anybody.
quote:
We are a nation based on capitalism.
Agreed. I think capitalism is great, but it has it's flaws and needs to be regulated so the haves cannot completely stomp all over the have-nots.
quote:
What did you expect? Journalism is reporting facts, not challenging whatever is popular. Your romantic view of journalism is naive.
Actually, if you knew anything of investigative journalism from as little as 50 years ago, you would know that it took it's mandate to challenge the status quo and investigate the powers that be very seriously.
A free and inquisitive press/media is extremely important in a free society. When money becomes more important to those agencies than informing the public, and they become big business, the public's access to unbiased reporting is compromised. These days, networks are quite beholden to their advertisers, so how much in-depth investigative journalism do you think is done regarding their corporate sponsors? A great deal of self-censoring goes on that didn't used to back when Cronkite was criticizing the wisdom of the Vietnam war on the evening news, and anti-war protests made it on to the news. Today, you will not hear one critical voice about this impending confrontation with Iraq, nor will you see much coverage of any of the protests and marches that have happened.
The number of independent news sources has been reduced drastically by huge mergers brought about by deregulation. On the other hand, the internet has opened up the world to all sorts of news that the big business networks don't report for fear of losing their advertisers or friends in government.
quote:
Do me a favor and forward this post to whatever left wing propaganda rag that spoonfed you this bunk information in hope they will revise their "facts" to reflect the truth.
Personal attack, devoid of any content.
Point for me.
quote:
Are you going to tell me Reagan was a Communist spy next?
Are you going to go to some anger-management classes next?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jdean33442, posted 02-03-2003 1:55 AM jdean33442 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jdean33442, posted 02-03-2003 6:21 PM nator has replied

  
jdean33442
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 17 (31179)
02-03-2003 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nator
02-03-2003 12:52 PM


quote:
Regardless, he still created the EPA, just like I said he did.
No. He signed a piece of paper. Creating such a thing is completely different.
quote:
He made it happen. Can you see any Republican president signing a big government program like that into existence today?
Why yes I can. President Bush "created" a big government program called the Homeland Security Department.
quote:
My point was, and is, as I stated above, that a conservative Republican these days would probably not be signing any anti-missile treaties with anybody.
Bush is not a Conservative Republican. So who are you referencing?
quote:
Actually, if you knew anything of investigative journalism from as little as 50 years ago, you would know that it took it's mandate to challenge the status quo and investigate the powers that be very seriously.
Where can I find said mandate?
quote:
Today, you will not hear one critical voice about this impending confrontation with Iraq, nor will you see much coverage of any of the protests and marches that have happened.
Anti-war demonstrations are hardly news worthy. Being informed of current events around the world will always take precedence over silly college kids complaining about policies they can't comprehend.
quote:
ME: Do me a favor and forward this post to whatever left wing propaganda rag that spoonfed you this bunk information in hope they will revise their "facts" to reflect the truth.
YOU: Personal attack, devoid of any content
Not a personal attack. I asked you simple to send the information to whatever liberal rag you read, however, I did not say you had a pointy head or a hunch back.
quote:
Are you going to go to some anger-management classes next?
You are specifically attacking me here. See the difference? Perhaps I should cry to the admins in hope of getting you suspended.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 02-03-2003 12:52 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Admin, posted 02-04-2003 8:24 AM jdean33442 has replied
 Message 6 by nator, posted 02-04-2003 9:27 AM jdean33442 has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 5 of 17 (31225)
02-04-2003 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jdean33442
02-03-2003 6:21 PM


jdean33442 and Schraf,
This thread is already slipping out of control.
Politics can result in volatile discussions. Please keep discussion within the guidelines or this thread will be closed.
jdean33442, I'm sure your future posts will convince me I'm wrong to suspect that you're just following Schraf around trying to get a rise out of her, and that you really *are* interested in serious discussion.
------------------
--EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jdean33442, posted 02-03-2003 6:21 PM jdean33442 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jdean33442, posted 02-04-2003 11:09 AM Admin has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 6 of 17 (31236)
02-04-2003 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jdean33442
02-03-2003 6:21 PM


I can see that you aren't interested in serious discussion, but are only interested in disageement for disagreement's sake.
I tried to engage in civil debate with you, jdean, but I don't think you are interested in that.
I will not be responding to your posts any more.
Happy now? Nobody wants to play with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jdean33442, posted 02-03-2003 6:21 PM jdean33442 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Satcomm, posted 02-04-2003 10:49 AM nator has replied

  
Satcomm
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 17 (31261)
02-04-2003 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by nator
02-04-2003 9:27 AM


quote:
I can see that you aren't interested in serious discussion, but are only interested in disageement for disagreement's sake.
LOL, if that's not hypocritical, then I don't know what is.
------------------
What is intelligence without wisdom?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by nator, posted 02-04-2003 9:27 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by nator, posted 02-04-2003 11:06 AM Satcomm has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 8 of 17 (31270)
02-04-2003 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Satcomm
02-04-2003 10:49 AM


Are you going to respond to my Nixon post or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Satcomm, posted 02-04-2003 10:49 AM Satcomm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Satcomm, posted 02-04-2003 11:32 AM nator has replied

  
jdean33442
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 17 (31271)
02-04-2003 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Admin
02-04-2003 8:24 AM


My first post in response to this thread debunked everything she had to say complete with references. I am curious, how is that badgering her?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Admin, posted 02-04-2003 8:24 AM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Silent H, posted 02-04-2003 12:19 PM jdean33442 has replied

  
Satcomm
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 17 (31282)
02-04-2003 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by nator
02-04-2003 11:06 AM


quote:
Are you going to respond to my Nixon post or not?
Curious. I'm wondering as to why you're itching so much for my response. You made a whole issue and debate out of one thing I said, simply because I didn't know where you were going with your previous statement. There's no need for me to respond, as
A) I don't find the topic interesting because I don't care for the Nixon era. Aside from "All the president's men", as that was a cool story about good journalism.
B) Your argument has already been refuted several times by my fellow "neanderthal narrow-minded conservatives".
C) This thread has strayed into a character debate involving the Admin.
I find all this distasteful. Maybe it's a chemical I can detect with my taste buds?
------------------
What is intelligence without wisdom?
[This message has been edited by Satcomm, 02-04-2003]
[This message has been edited by Satcomm, 02-05-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by nator, posted 02-04-2003 11:06 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by nator, posted 02-05-2003 2:10 PM Satcomm has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 11 of 17 (31293)
02-04-2003 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jdean33442
02-04-2003 11:09 AM


[QUOTE] by jdean++++++++++++++++++++++++
My first post in response to this thread debunked everything she had to say complete with references. I am curious, how is that badgering her?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Your reference merely put Nixon's actions regarding the EPA into context. No matter your opinion, as much as a President "creates" any program, Nixon did create the EPA.
I agree with your assessment of how the ABM treaty came about under Nixon, but I think schraf also has a point that these days a republican would not be signing anything like that.
The idea that Bush is not a conservative republican scares the hell out of me. There are people MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN BUSH? I realize he hasn't enacted as many conservative programs as conservatives would like, but certainly his heart is all for it.
I mean if not for that damn constitution!
BTW, from an outsider's perspective, your post did come off a little hostile and contrary for the sake of being contrary. Not saying you meant it to be that way, just saying I can see why people would think that.
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jdean33442, posted 02-04-2003 11:09 AM jdean33442 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jdean33442, posted 02-04-2003 12:31 PM Silent H has not replied
 Message 13 by edge, posted 02-04-2003 11:53 PM Silent H has not replied

  
jdean33442
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 17 (31296)
02-04-2003 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Silent H
02-04-2003 12:19 PM


quote:
Your reference merely put Nixon's actions regarding the EPA into context. No matter your opinion, as much as a President "creates" any program, Nixon did create the EPA.
In my eyes Nixon did not create the EPA. He simply signed what was put in front of him. Bush on the other hand created the Homeland Security department from it's inception.
quote:
The idea that Bush is not a conservative republican scares the hell out of me. There are people MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN BUSH? I realize he hasn't enacted as many conservative programs as conservatives would like, but certainly his heart is all for it.
Bush is not a conservative. Conservatism is applied by giving the power to the people not government. Bush is doing the opposite by creating more government instead of less. He is definetely republican though.
quote:
BTW, from an outsider's perspective, your post did come off a little hostile and contrary for the sake of being contrary. Not saying you meant it to be that way, just saying I can see why people would think that.
I admit I can be quite abraisive when not intending to be. I still don't think I was badgering her just for badgering sake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Silent H, posted 02-04-2003 12:19 PM Silent H has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 13 of 17 (31380)
02-04-2003 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Silent H
02-04-2003 12:19 PM


quote:
The idea that Bush is not a conservative republican scares the hell out of me. There are people MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN BUSH?
Are you serious? I know people who don't listen to Rush Limbaugh because he's too liberal. Yeah, I was shocked too. But the point is that Bush is not exactly a far-right winger.
quote:
I realize he hasn't enacted as many conservative programs as conservatives would like, but certainly his heart is all for it.
This is a hallmark of the Bush presidencies. I am glad for it. Perhaps it shows a degree of intelligence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Silent H, posted 02-04-2003 12:19 PM Silent H has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 14 of 17 (31442)
02-05-2003 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Satcomm
02-04-2003 11:32 AM


I only persued this to make my point, which you seem to contest, that the "left", which you and other conservatives tend to blame for everything in this country, doesn't really exist. At least, it is in no position of power or influence, so what goes on that is not to your liking is not the nonexistent left's fault.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Satcomm, posted 02-04-2003 11:32 AM Satcomm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Satcomm, posted 02-05-2003 3:32 PM nator has replied

  
Satcomm
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 17 (31448)
02-05-2003 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by nator
02-05-2003 2:10 PM


quote:
I only persued this to make my point, which you seem to contest, that the "left", which you and other conservatives tend to blame for everything in this country, doesn't really exist.
I don't blame the "left" for the problems in this country. I blame the loss of personal responsibility and rampant liberalism.
quote:
At least, it is in no position of power or influence, so what goes on that is not to your liking is not the nonexistent left's fault.
It's not about that. I see a mentality that is rising in popularity in our country that is leading it into a bad direction.
------------------
What is intelligence without wisdom?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nator, posted 02-05-2003 2:10 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by nator, posted 02-11-2003 10:10 PM Satcomm has replied

  
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