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Author Topic:   I want one good reason that being gay is ok
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 1 of 510 (121151)
07-02-2004 7:52 AM


Now before any of you think that I am gay bashing, I will tell you that I do not hate gay people, or dislike them for being gay. I have many gay friends and relatives. I accept them the way they are.
I just do not agree with the act of being gay. Its the act I do not think is ok not the person doing it.
I will start off with some examples that we have already gone over and why you can't use them.
#1 People have tried to claim that is not against God. I believe we have clearly shown that it is against God's will for a person to have gay sex.
#2 Animal kingdom, animals in the wild are gay, so its ok for us to be gay. Not a good reason either, as animals also rape, steal and kill, thats ok for them, but not for us. So we cannot compare our lifestyle to the animal kingdom.
#3 "I was born this way." I refuse to believe this one also. Its a choice to be gay period, just like its a choice to be a thief.
#4 Gay people have better relationships than straight and can make better parents. I absolutly refuse to believe this one, as I have never seen a completely happy gay couple, or a child from gay parents who wasn't screwd up by it. Gay couples and parents experience all the same problems that straight couples do and more.
Please please, do not bash me for thinking this way. I do not bash anyone for being gay. Maybe with intelligent conversation, you can give me one good reason that being gay is ok.
Before you go claiming that I feel this way because I believe in God, then let me tell you that I felt this way before I believed in God, and my upbringing was in NYC by a liberal mother, who taught me to accept being gay is ok. I never felt is was ok, even though this is what she tried to teach me. I was surrounded by gay people my whole life. My best friend had lesbian parents (boy was he screwed up by that. Those are his own words).
Love to all.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 07-02-2004 06:54 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 07-02-2004 1:05 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 4 by Loudmouth, posted 07-02-2004 1:07 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 5 by Coragyps, posted 07-02-2004 1:08 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 07-02-2004 1:08 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 7 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-02-2004 1:09 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 8 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-02-2004 1:20 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 9 by coffee_addict, posted 07-02-2004 1:26 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 10 by bob_gray, posted 07-02-2004 1:53 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 11 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 07-02-2004 8:17 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 07-02-2004 8:20 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 20 by Rrhain, posted 07-02-2004 11:33 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 113 by jar, posted 07-03-2004 1:57 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 148 by purpledawn, posted 07-03-2004 11:23 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 408 by Saviourmachine, posted 07-12-2004 3:25 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 486 by purpledawn, posted 07-21-2004 11:03 AM riVeRraT has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 510 (121204)
07-02-2004 12:58 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 510 (121206)
07-02-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-02-2004 7:52 AM


What is the question?
Why would anyone care if you believe being gay is ok or not?
I don't think anyone has ever said that you should think being gay is ok.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 7:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 11:41 PM jar has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 510 (121208)
07-02-2004 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-02-2004 7:52 AM


quote:
#2 Animal kingdom, animals in the wild are gay, so its ok for us to be gay. Not a good reason either, as animals also rape, steal and kill, thats ok for them, but not for us. So we cannot compare our lifestyle to the animal kingdom.
But we can't deny that homosexuality is a natural occurence, and we can't claim that homosexuality is unnatural.
One good reason that being gay is ok: It makes people happier. Whether or not homosexuality is a predisposition, I don't know. However, never in my life did I choose to be heterosexual, and it has never been shown that heterosexuality is the default mode. We are who we are, and we know what makes us happy. Why should someone else's religious feelings get in the way of someone else's happiness? Especially in a country where personal freedom is so well guarded. Would you rather people be lonely and miserable so that you feel better with your set of morals? I sure wouldn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 7:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 11:46 PM Loudmouth has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 5 of 510 (121209)
07-02-2004 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-02-2004 7:52 AM


"I was born this way." I refuse to believe this one also. Its a choice to be gay period, just like its a choice to be a thief.
You can refuse to believe anything you want to without affecting reality all that much. Evidence keeps mounting up that many gay people are, in fact, "born that way." It doesn't appear to be a "choice" to be attracted to people of the same sex. Of course, it is (most of the time, we hope) a choice to have sex with another person. But that's also a heterosexual choice that the apostle Paul, at least, seemed to think was not the best option - "better to marry than to burn with desire" or words to that effect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 7:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 11:48 PM Coragyps has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 6 of 510 (121210)
07-02-2004 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-02-2004 7:52 AM


Just a couple of points and a couple of questions. If it isn't wrong then that in itself is enough of a reason to say that it is "OK". And if it isn't "right" because it is "natural" it can't be wrong for being "unnatural" as is often claimed.
When you say that "God is against it" do you mean that it is an arbitrary rule or prjeudice on God's part or is it wrong in some other way that explains why God is against it ? And if it is wrong in some other way, then what it that way ?
When you say that "being gay is a choice" do you mean that you are equally sexually attracted to men and to women ? Or do you think that everyone can simply choose to be celibate ? It must be one or the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 7:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 11:55 PM PaulK has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 510 (121211)
07-02-2004 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-02-2004 7:52 AM


I believe we have clearly shown that it is against God's will for a person to have gay sex.
What's this "God" thing people keep going on about? They keep telling me that "God" is for something or against something, but can't point to God or tell me what God is. Weird.
Animal kingdom, animals in the wild are gay, so its ok for us to be gay.
Strawman. The argument is used against people who say "homosexuality is unnatural". Well, it happens in nature all the time. So down goes the unnatural argument.
"I was born this way." I refuse to believe this one also.
That's cool. Your personal disbelief amounts to the square root of diddly squat, but okay.
I have never seen a completely happy gay couple, or a child from gay parents who wasn't screwd up by it.
I have yet to see any kid that wasn't screwed up by their parents in some way. What's your point?
Maybe with intelligent conversation, you can give me one good reason that being gay is ok.
There's no need. There's no compelling reason to think homosexuality has anything to do with morality one way or the other. You want to establish that morality has some sort of relevance here, the onus is on you to say why.

"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 7:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2004 12:01 AM Dan Carroll has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 8 of 510 (121215)
07-02-2004 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-02-2004 7:52 AM


#4 Gay people have better relationships than straight and can make better parents. I absolutly refuse to believe this one, as I have never seen a completely happy gay couple, or a child from gay parents who wasn't screwd up by it. Gay couples and parents experience all the same problems that straight couples do and more.
Maybe gay relationships are not "better" than straight ones, but if they are equal, why disparage the gay relationships? One real piece of evidence that you may be thinking of in making this statement is that there are lower rates of domestic violence among gay couples than straight couples (though admittedly I don't have a reference at hand...)
Unfortunately, your examples are anecdotal. And "completely happy"? I'm not sure any relationship is 100% happiness. The homosexual couples, and children of homosexuals I know are no less happy, and no more screwed up, than those of heterosexual couples - of course this is anecdote from my viewpoint.
Also, you seem to be walking a fine-line - I've seen others do the same: "I accept them the way they are. I just do not agree with the act of being gay." If you don't agree with how they live their lives, you are not accepting them the way they are.
One good reason gay is ok? Because if two people love each other and make each other happy, it shouldn't matter what their sex is...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 7:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2004 12:08 AM pink sasquatch has replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 9 of 510 (121216)
07-02-2004 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-02-2004 7:52 AM


Finally, I've been waiting for this to get approved.
the rat writes:
... will tell you that I do not hate gay people...I just do not agree with the act of being gay. Its the act I do not think is ok not the person doing it.
The reason I did not quote all of it is to save some cyber space. If people want to see the origional message, just read rat's post.
If this is truly the case, then you would stay the hell out of our way for us to get our rights.
#1 People have tried to claim that is not against God. I believe we have clearly shown that it is against God's will for a person to have gay sex.
Since this is not in the homosexuality and the bible thread, I believe I can say that I don't give a rat's arse what an imaginary being thinks.
#2 Animal kingdom, animals in the wild are gay, so its ok for us to be gay. Not a good reason either, as animals also rape, steal and kill, thats ok for them, but not for us. So we cannot compare our lifestyle to the animal kingdom.
Christian fundies were the ones that started the "natural" argument. Let me tell you a story. When I was in high school, I attended a debate on this issue. The christian fundies in the school said that you don't find gay animal around, therefore it is unnatural for people to be homosexuals. When I heard this argument for the first time, I bursted out laughing for about 5 minutes. When I came back to my senses, I had to explain to people why I was laughing. Quite frankly, I thought using animal behavior for human moral guidance was just about the most amusing thing I had ever heard.
The point is fundies started the unnatural argument, not us. We only pointed out the fact that there are animal gays just to get fundies to realize their mistake, that's all. I have been in this debate for at least 3 years and I haven't heard a single pro gay rights advocate to make the argument. They only use some facts to counter the fundies side.
#3 "I was born this way." I refuse to believe this one also. Its a choice to be gay period, just like its a choice to be a thief.
I don't care what you believe or don't believe. There is no way for you to get me to care. All I ask is you stay out of our way.
#4 Gay people have better relationships than straight and can make better parents. I absolutly refuse to believe this one, as I have never seen a completely happy gay couple, or a child from gay parents who wasn't screwd up by it. Gay couples and parents experience all the same problems that straight couples do and more.
Do us all a favor and go back to sleep. I think you just dreamt up this amazing tale. I have never heard of the argument that gay couples make better parents. Keep dreaming and you are bound to see a million dollars.
Maybe with intelligent conversation, you can give me one good reason that being gay is ok.
Here is my one reason for you. What I do in my bedroom has absolutely nothing to do with you. Who I decide to get married has absolutley nothing to do with you. I am not sending out some gay ray that will turn you gay. I have never tried to hit on a straight guy before, and I ask the same courtesy from straight guys.
I feel compelled to tell an experience on this. When I was a freshman and sophmore in high school, I was against the act of gay just like you are now. I found out that a friend of mine was gay, so I started distancing myself from him. I started to join the anti-gay crowd until my gay friend got beaten by some of the people I knew. So you see, this is a personal matter for me. I don't care what you believe as long as you keep your mouth shut if you ever want to give a hate speech. Same thing with the law. Why outlawing something that has absolutely nothing to do with you?
Before you go claiming that I feel this way because I believe in God, then let me tell you that I felt this way before I believed in God...
So, using the bible was only an excuse for your prejudice.
and my upbringing was in NYC by a liberal mother, who taught me to accept being gay is ok.
What's your point?
I never felt is was ok, even though this is what she tried to teach me.
We have a word to describe someone that have always felt something before finding some excuses for it: prejudice.
I was surrounded by gay people my whole life. My best friend had lesbian parents (boy was he screwed up by that. Those are his own words).
Aside from using one of the fallacies of logic, you are again using lame excuses. I have 2 friends who have lesbian parents and they are perfectly normal. They love their parents and they are 100% straight. However, I have never used this fact to argue for homosexuality. Why? Using 1 example is not enough to justify anything.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 7:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2004 12:23 AM coffee_addict has not replied

bob_gray
Member (Idle past 5013 days)
Posts: 243
From: Virginia
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 10 of 510 (121221)
07-02-2004 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-02-2004 7:52 AM


One good reason (and this goes beyond being gay)
There is clearly no need to address points 1 - 4 since other people have done a fine job already. Here is my reason why being gay is OK, and this really applies to almost anything I do.
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
Thomas Jefferson
This statement doesn't only apply to statements about god(s), it applies to almost all human activity. My personal moral code states that as long as what I do doesn't injure you in some way it is none of your business what I do. Hence almost everything I do is OK. This is why I think vice crimes are a waste of government money and resources. If you don't want to pay for sex then don't but what business is it of yours if I do? I personally don't care for alcohol but does that mean I should restrict your right to have it? If I want to have sex with people of the same gender then I think a better questions are "Why should you care?" and more importantly "Why should you be involved?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 7:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by RAZD, posted 07-03-2004 12:18 AM bob_gray has replied
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One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 11 of 510 (121329)
07-02-2004 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-02-2004 7:52 AM


I'm straight, but you're still bent
This sounds like a good opportunity to link to my site, with my opinion about how fundies belittle homosexuals:
http://badpreacher.5u.com/custom.html
Warning: Lots of profanity.
I realize this doesn't justify it against scripture very well, but I won't let anybody tell me to dislike someone for what they do that isn't my business anyway. Remember: God hates the sin, not the person. and ALL SINS ARE FORGIVABLE; somehow I doubt blasphemy is as unforgivable as people say.
How about this: Born2Preach wants one good reason that being gay is NOT okay.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think homosexuality is very appealing at all, but it's none of my business what somebody else does in their own spare time.

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 7:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 510 (121332)
07-02-2004 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-02-2004 7:52 AM


#3 "I was born this way." I refuse to believe this one also.
#4 Gay people have better relationships than straight and can make better parents. I absolutly refuse to believe this one
How do either of these constitute rebuttals to the arguments? I don't understand why you refusing to believe an argument when the evidence is laid out before you is anything but an example of your own lazy thinking. It's hardly a refutation to the arguments.
Why should any of us give a damn what you will or won't believe?
You want one good reason why having gay sex is ok? Because some people are gay, having gay sex makes them feel good, and it doesn't hurt any of the rest of us one single bit for them to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2004 7:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2004 12:34 AM crashfrog has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 510 (121353)
07-02-2004 10:06 PM


1. Gay men tend to molest male children far more than straights.
2. Gays insist on special treatment and rights which go against the morm of the natural since history has been recorded.
3. Gays should understand that their lifestyle is repulsive to those who are sexually natural.
4. It is not natural to be gay. Whether one is evo or creo, the organs of the body were made for a male/female relationship.
5. Gay is dangerous to health as is adultery sex with multiple couples.
6. Gays disrupt nations, causing all kinds of animosity, unrest and social problems.
7. Since the beginning of history, homosexuality has been considered an un-natural and dispicable lifestyle by the public in general.
8. Nations and cities which have been overly tolerant to gay lifestyle and public activity do not last long.
9. Persons who chose to live the gay lifestyle should go back in the closet where they've been since our nation was founded until the hippy sixties when we heard all the talk about them coming out of their closets. Then the trouble began and so it continues to escalate, dividing and weakening the nation.
10. I too have over the years had a number of gay friends and constituents in the past but nearly all tended to keep it to themselves in their closets so to speak. It's when they come out demanding stuff and displaying their perverted lifestyle to normal folks that becomes disgraceful and repulsive.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 07-02-2004 09:12 PM

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 14 of 510 (121354)
07-02-2004 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
07-02-2004 10:06 PM


Bullshit, Buz. And unsupported bullshit at that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Buzsaw, posted 07-02-2004 10:06 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Buzsaw, posted 07-02-2004 10:24 PM Coragyps has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 510 (121355)
07-02-2004 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Coragyps
07-02-2004 10:16 PM


[qs]......, Buz. And unsupported ....... at that.
Ok Bud, go for it with an item by item refutation. I'm all ears.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Coragyps, posted 07-02-2004 10:16 PM Coragyps has not replied

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