REAL Flood Geology

Everyone knows YECs mine the Genesis flood account to rationalize every geophysical phenomenon. They say strata were laid by the flood, fossils formed by the flood, continents moved around by the flood, mountains raised by it, canyons etched by it. Water is magic: it does anything a YEC needs it to do. Saying 'flood' is like saying 'abracadabra.' It makes the magic happen.Scientists usually respond to this on an item-by-item basis. They explain why this or that geophysical feature could not have been formed in such a way. They show how other well-documented processes account for what we see. Such responses are informative and our scientists are to be thanked for taking the time to provide them.I suspect, though, that we might benefit from a scientific discussion of this from another angle:How would the earth look today if there had been a global catastrophic flood circa 4,500-5,000 years ago?Real water isn't magic. It behaves in real ways.What would we find today--in rocks, in the atmosphere, in flora and fauna?___Edited by Archer Opterix, : Changed approximate flood date to correspond more closely with YEC views.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

What evidence would there be for it?For one all the dendrochronologies would have a break at the year of the flood - all continuous records would start with tree growth since the water receded and previous growth would end on the year of the flood and all previous growth would end with those "polystyrate" trees creationists love: there would be no overlap in climate or chronology.No matter what seeds or sprouts the trees grew from or how fast the trees grew after the flood (which would also show up as pithy growth rather than normal ring growth) to replace the forests etcetera they could not go back in time to be growing in the same year as one before the flood.Therefor the flood had to be before any current continuous tree ring record. That is about 11,000 years.Enjoy

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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We would see much less ice in Grrenalnd and Antarctica.There would be onw world-wide thick layer of sedimentary deposits, still turning to rock, filled with jumbled skeletons of all sorts of creatures.We'd see essentially no marine or freshwater life.We'd see essentially no vegetation.We'd see evidence of a genetic botleneck in all living ctreatures, a few thousand years ago.We wouldn't be here to see it; there's no way viable ecologies could recover after that.

From Message 100(With some formating changes)Based on this information the world history is divided into two zones - pre-pollen and post-pollen.{ABE}
Now it MAY be possible to consider this boundary line to be the mark of the flood.But we also have the world history divided into two OTHER zones - pre iridium layer and post iridium layer - where the iridium marks the K-T boundary 65 million years ago. Both these lines are buried in sedimentary layers. They cannot both be products of a single flood scenario.
{/ABE}Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : added K-T boundary

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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One correction. According to the Biblical Creationists the earth and universe were formed 6000 years ago. The flood is more like 4000 to 4500 years ago. Oetzi is contemporary with Adam, not Noah.There would be a jumble of fossils of ALL species that ever lived in one distinct layer. Within that layer the fossils might be sorted by density, but will not be sorted by species. For example, all types of pollen of similar density will be found in the same layer.In flora and fauna, there will be a monstrous big bottle neck signature in every species of plant and animal pointing to a most recent common ancestor at the time of the flood. This signature would be so common and so ubiquitous that every geneticist would see it as a large and easily identifiable marker like the K/T boundary is to geologists.World wide, the predominate sign of erosion will be short term water transport. We should not see signs of long term weathering.Since the earth was created on a few thousand years before the flood, and the flood was basically a one year event, and since the flood mechanisms similar to those we see today have been in play, there should be NO accumulation of weathered rockpiles at the base of cliffs.Since the earth was created only a few thousand years before the flood, the geological column should consist of three main layers, the lower being all primary rocks, a slim distinct layer containing a jumbled mess of rocks, fossils and debris that is the signature of the flood with a single layer of sedimentary rocks above.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

About 15 years ago, a jewelry shop-space at a local mall was a creationist fossil shop. While he did post the accepted scientific ages of the fossils (ie, in several millions of years), he also had made and mounted on the wall posters of claims directly from creation science books, including the common misquoting of Darwin of the evolution of the eye (which I called him on and even gave him the original from "Origin of Species", which he immediately filed away and undoubtedly never read). I got into a discussion with another customer, a creationist. At one point, he responded to a mass fossil burial site of land animals, one site of many, that alone would have nearly populated all the current earth's land area, but when the several others are taken into account the earth would have been overpopulated. He responded by reiterating the common creationist reconstruction of the ante-diluvial world as being mainly land area and having practically not seas. So I asked the proprietor what kind of fossils were most prevalent, marine or land. Why, marine fossils, by an extremely large margin.1. So, then, if Flood Geology were true, then we would expect a lot fewer fossils than we do find, and especially a lot fewer land fossils or marine fossils, depending on what percentage of the ante-diluvial world's surface was land.2. We would not find the fossil sequence sorted out as we do find it.3. We would not find so many complete ecologies superposed over each other (eg, entire sea beds complete with extensive burrowing.

It would look as it does now.Evidences of a global flood be global in nature.
Therefore, local evidences wouldn't necessarily apply.
In general there would be:1. Adequate water.
2. Adequate oceanic basins for the formation of dry earth.
3. Erosion remnants confirming run off of water from continents into oceanic basins.
4. Flood stories in all languages.
5. Flood sediments at great heights around the earth.
6. Remnants of an ever decreasing ice sheet.
7. A diverse complex of sedimentary structures.
8. Large deposits of evaporites.
9. Large homogeneous deposits of formulated materials.
10. Sediments correlating to specific gravity of elements and molecules.
11. Large deposits sorted by size.
12. Large deposits of extreme purity.
13. Large deposits of fossilized herds.
14. Large coal deposits.
15. Large caves.
16. Large fossil beds.
Excetra...Joman.

Thanks, Jar. I've corrected the OP to reflect this._

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Every one of your bullets is much better supported and better explained by deep time geology. Unfortunately each probably deserves to be a topic but itself.You might want to pick the one you think is the strongest and start a topic and prepare to defend it.There many geological structures that falsify a Young Earth such as chalk formations, diatomaceous chert, salt domes, large emplacement of basalt, basalt layers with paleosols, multiple iceage remnants, pot holes, exclusive fossil layering, etc.However the best geological structure that demonstrates Old Deep Time Earth are Angular Unconformities, which I have yet to find any YEC'er provide a reasonable explanation.The beauty of Angular Unconformities is that they are common, you can walk right up and view one first hand, you do not need a microscope, you do not have to accept nebulous decay or deposition rates, etc. - in short they can be appreciated via direct sensory perception.There is topic here on this subject which unfortunately has been ignored by any YEC advocate. Message 1

quote:

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How would the earth look today if there had been a global catastrophic flood circa 4,500-5,000 years ago?

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Strata should be segregated by organism mass. We should see african elephants in the same strata as mastadons and medium weight dinosaurs as fluid mechanics states that they should have sunk at the same rates. Likewise, we should see strata that have both complex plants and primitive plants. Also strata should have the most primitive and complex molluscs at the same time.Assuming that the moutains formed AFTER the flood, this planet should be massively hotter from runaway subduction and there should be huge moutains far larger then Everest in several locations.Species should have very, very limited variation as they came from a bottleneck of genes. Most species, if not all should suffer massively from several transmittable diseases or hereditary diseases.Most of the continents would be barren from the salt left on them from the flood. Only salt tolerant plants should be in abudance.Very few predators as the food pyramid would be relatively small from the lack of herbivores due from the lack of vegetation.

Any so-called global flood would leave one layer of flood-deposit sediment that would be seen at virtually every spot on {dry} Earth. This layer would be several miles thick with coarse grained sediments at the bottom grading up to finer sediments at the top. So it would be something like igneous/metamorphic bedrock > a conglomerate of cobbles > gravel > sandstone > shale > limestone > evaporites > recent thin layer/topsoil/aeolian deposits. Nothing else below, nothing else on top, and no unconformities or interbedding of igneous, evaporite, or other sedimentary rock that does not fit in with this sorted sequence. Within this layer there would be a jumble of fossils roughly sorted by size, big on the bottom and small on the top.This so-called flood layer does not exist worldwide. In fact I don't know of any single spot on Earth where such a sequence exists.If such a sequence does exist anywhere on Earth, please name the exact location so I can perform a literature review to determine if it does actually meet the necessary criteria.If my scenario for a flood deposit is incorrect, please state exactly why it is incorrect according to known principles of physics, like gravity and isostasy.ABE - Of course, this sequence would not include evaporites in deposits currently underwater, rather there should be a universal layer of evaporites everywhere on dry land. Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

Yes, this is the Norse one:
The Norse Creation Myth

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Odin, Vili, and Vé killed the giant Ymir.

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When Ymir fell, there issued from his wounds such a flood of blood, that all the frost ogres were drowned, except for the giant Bergelmir who escaped with his wife by climbing onto a lur [a hollowed-out tree trunk that could serve either as a boat or a coffin]. From them spring the families of frost ogres.

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Earth, trees, and mountains

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The sons of Bor then carried Ymir to the middle of Ginnungagap and made the world from him. From his blood they made the sea and the lakes; from his flesh the earth; from his hair the trees; and from his bones the mountains. They made rocks and pebbles from his teeth and jaws and those bones that were broken.

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Dwarfs

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Maggots appeared in Ymir's flesh and came to life. By the decree of the gods they acquired human understanding and the appearance of men, although they lived in the earth and in rocks.

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Sky, clouds, and stars

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From Ymir's skull the sons of Bor made the sky and set it over the earth with its four sides. Under each corner they put a dwarf, whose names are East, West, North, and South.

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The sons of Bor flung Ymir's brains into the air, and they became the clouds.

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Then they took the sparks and burning embers that were flying about after they had been blown out of Muspell, and placed them in the midst of Ginnungagap to give light to heaven above and earth beneath. To the stars they gave appointed places and paths.

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The earth was surrounded by a deep sea. The sons of Bor gave lands near the sea to the families of giants for their settlements.

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Midgard

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To protect themselves from the hostile giants, the sons of Bor built for themselves an inland stonghold, using Ymir's eyebrows. This stonghold they named Midgard.

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Ask and Embla

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While walking along the sea shore the sons of Bor found two trees, and from them they created a man and a woman.

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Odin gave the man and the woman spirit and life. Vili gave them understanding and the power of movement. Vé gave them clothing and names. The man was named Ask [Ash] and the woman Embla [Elm?]. From Ask and Embla have sprung the races of men who lived in Midgard.

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Look, the biblical story has a boat in it just like the Norse one!This REALLY is amazing validation that the Norse flood is true, as evidenced by all these other sources.Further discussion merits a new topic. IF you want to pursue it.Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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Correction: by body density or specific gravity. Dinosaurs with hollow bones would be higher than elephants.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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yeah, yeah. You get my point that we should see strata containing organisms that should be millions of years apart.