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Author
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Topic: Media and Religion today
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Theus
Inactive Member
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Message 1 of 63 (338023)
08-04-2006 10:41 PM
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The past two months have changed much of my views of religion, media, and terrorism. This is a bit ironic, as my goal was to learn about archaeology. I have just returned to the states after working at Tel Megiddo in Israel, some 20 kilometers south of Haifa. I was working specifically on a Bronze Age Monument and the Iron Age Solomon's Stables (that may not be stables and may not be Solomon's). However, some three weeks ago Hezbollah terrorists killed one Israeli soldier and kidnapped the other two, resulting in Israel's bombing of the Beirut International Airport and the subsequent raining of Katyusha rockets over northern Israel, including the area where I was working. My mother, when I would talk to her in this period, always was very frantic which though understandable, seemed a bit too much. Though I was within range of the rockets Tel Megiddo just didn't seem too attractive a target, and the chance of strays in this area was very low. Nevertheless, about half of the "Megiddoim" left Israel, including most of the Americans, Canadians, and French. All that were left were Europeans, Israelis, and only two or three members of the previous nations mentioned (including myself). Coming back to the states earlier this week, I can now see why there was such panic. I was a mixture of mortified and disturbed to see the sensationalist yellow journalism on this event. The words "Armageddon" were in bold, the evangelical ministers talking about "getting right with god", and the dramatic news coverage, all of this ran counter to my own experience. Granted, some nights were terrifying, and I developed a new appreciation for life, but life itself went on as usual. It was war, a dangerous war, but not one worth putting life on hold. We still traveled, still went to Arab and Israeli towns, even to the Muslim quarter of Jerusalem. Yet here, it seems that America was holding its breath for the rapture, precisely because this is what kept them watching. As far as I'm concerned CNN and Fox News are the worst dangers to that region (and ours) because they give a voice to the extreme elements of any conflict and isolate (and thus discourage) the more moderate majority. I would like to know what others think, because I think more than any one war or one political controversy this is a problem that needs to be addressed. If our "eyes" for the rest of the world are so jaded and nearsighted, we have the obligation to do our best to change it, but only if everyone sees the same problem. Tiens, Theus
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AdminFaith
Inactive Member
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Message 2 of 63 (338035)
08-04-2006 11:13 PM
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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 3 of 63 (338040)
08-04-2006 11:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Theus
08-04-2006 10:41 PM
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war and dangerous areas
I think the reality is often so different than the impressions from media reports that people forget that for most people, life goes on and somewhat as usual. When you are closer to a situation, you can more easily see the lines of what is dangerous and what's still safe.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Theus, posted 08-04-2006 10:41 PM | | Theus has not replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Message 4 of 63 (338350)
08-07-2006 8:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Theus
08-04-2006 10:41 PM
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I agree, and disagree with you. I have never seen a news report where I was at the scene, and witnessed the event (even interviewed) get reported correctly, in the news, or on TV. So I suspect that the reports we are seeing, are not completely portraying what is actually happening that well. On the other hand, random rockets, filled with bb's at the rate of 200 per day. is no joke either. If we examine the supply lines of where Hizbolla are getting their weapons from, and who else might be involved, or quick to jump in, there is actual cause for alarm. If Iran chose to get involved, and possibly pulled out a nuke or something, there is a possibility of WW3. I would hope we as a race of humans, would be beyond all that, but who knows how it could all go down. Justifying one attack after another.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Theus, posted 08-04-2006 10:41 PM | | Theus has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 5 by nator, posted 08-07-2006 9:09 AM | | riVeRraT has not replied | | | Message 6 by Theus, posted 08-07-2006 11:52 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 5 of 63 (338354)
08-07-2006 9:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 4 by riVeRraT
08-07-2006 8:41 AM
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quote:
If Iran chose to get involved,
Iran is already involved.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by riVeRraT, posted 08-07-2006 8:41 AM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by Tal, posted 08-12-2006 4:59 PM | | nator has not replied |
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Theus
Inactive Member
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Message 6 of 63 (338370)
08-07-2006 11:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 4 by riVeRraT
08-07-2006 8:41 AM
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True but...
...that it is newsworthy is true, but once again the Americain media is the problem. It has taken a war story and inflated it to biblical proportions. There were reports of this being "Armageddon" on Fox News. Where else you might ask? CNN even jumped on this overblown bandwagon. This won't turn into WW3, and can't. The conflict misses the essential ingredient that makes a world war, alliances. Granted, Israel is surrounded by enemies. This doesn't mean that other countries in the region aren't already surrounded by enemies. Remember Syria pulling out of Lebenon last year? Or how despised Sadaam was by surrounding nations? Each nation in this region has antagonistic relationships with each other. That a nation such as Iran would support a group such as Hezbollah is not evidence of an alliance with a nation, it is a demonstration to the contrary! The region is too easily simplified into muslim vs. jew. Either way, it is a war fought only when the media is present. Americain media basically hands a microphone to the most extreme elements in the conflict and asks "what do you think?" ~ Guess what behavior this encourages.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by riVeRraT, posted 08-07-2006 8:41 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 7 of 63 (338381)
08-07-2006 1:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Theus
08-04-2006 10:41 PM
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As far as I'm concerned CNN and Fox News are the worst dangers to that region (and ours) because they give a voice to the extreme elements of any conflict and isolate (and thus discourage) the more moderate majority. To the extent that it's almost unheard of for moderates in any religion to actually take a stance against their co-religionist extremists, the voice of the moderates is irrelevant. When push comes to shove, so-called "moderates" almost always take the side of their extremist peers rather than deal with the discomfort of siding with outsiders against elements of their own religion.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Theus, posted 08-04-2006 10:41 PM | | Theus has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 8 by Theus, posted 08-08-2006 12:13 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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Theus
Inactive Member
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Message 8 of 63 (338457)
08-08-2006 12:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
08-07-2006 1:33 PM
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Where is your information for such an assertion? In the absence of a political or media focus on a particiular group the moderates completely dillute extremist opinions, the fact that they are moderates isolates the extremists. The right wing in America, prior to the mid 1990's did not receive much spotlite and more moderate views of Christianity kept it from being overwhelming in politics. With the advent of Fox News and key political acts by the Republicans we now see more extremist views, but initial "energy" must be pumped into these groups in terms of money and media to get change started. In a sense, the media acts as a willing catalyst. Specific to my earlier assertion, if you give media attention to a militant extremist group, then that is where subsequent funding will go to. Look at Arafat and how he set himself and his key group of Fatah friends during his lifetime. They were squeeky and they got the grease. While it is true that moderates generally won't rise up in revolution, it also means that in absence of the "alpha-extremist" (in this case Arafat), the money disapears as well as votes. People in this region rely on outside support, in a sense they must compete against each other for that role.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 08-07-2006 1:33 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 08-08-2006 12:48 AM | | Theus has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 9 of 63 (338459)
08-08-2006 12:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Theus
08-08-2006 12:13 AM
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Where is your information for such an assertion? The information is all around us. How often is Pat Robertson condemned for making extreme statements? Sure, it happens a little bit. Mostly he shoots his mouth off and no one cares. But he's still on TV. ABC still runs his program. Millions of Christian moderates in America, and they let this guy speak for him? Remember that Christians have pulled hundreds of TV shows off the air when they felt they threatened their faith. Pat Robertson's somehow unstoppable?
The right wing in America, prior to the mid 1990's did not receive much spotlite and more moderate views of Christianity kept it from being overwhelming in politics. Nonsense. The public voices of Christianity in this country have always been extremist ideologues. William Jennings Bryan. Cotton Mather. Gerald Winrod. Johnathan Edwards. Ralph Reed.
They were squeeky and they got the grease. And moderates refuse to squeak. Look, I don't disagree with you that the attention goes to the extremists. But that's not because the media favors extremists; it's because religious moderates refuse to offer any competing voice, for fear of creating a schism within their own religion, or for fear of appearing to side with outside forces against their own religious peers.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Theus, posted 08-08-2006 12:13 AM | | Theus has not replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Message 10 of 63 (338646)
08-08-2006 9:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 6 by Theus
08-07-2006 11:52 AM
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Re: True but...
Have you seen how they are reporting it on Al-jezeera? There is a large group of people there that will never quit until the Jews are irraticated. Seems to be plenty of alliance going on.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by Theus, posted 08-07-2006 11:52 AM | | Theus has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 11 by Silent H, posted 08-09-2006 5:01 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5842 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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Message 11 of 63 (338668)
08-09-2006 5:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 10 by riVeRraT
08-08-2006 9:35 PM
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Re: True but...
There is a large group of people there that will never quit until the Jews are irraticated. Seems to be plenty of alliance going on.
You seem to have an incorrect view of this. There are plenty of alliances of convenience, and voiced alliances with no real support, but that doesn't mean anything as far as a large scale allied body with muscle to make things happen. In the "Islamic world" there is definitely NOT a large group of people that will never quit until the Jews are eradicated. The largest group are people who are angry with the actions of Israel and want justice for other nations (against the only effective alliance which is US-Israel). The next largest group are angry enough they want the nation of Israel eliminated. That is NOT synonymous with jews, but rather the overthrow of Iraq (which we just did). There is only a small element that are patently antisemitic to the point that they want all jews eradicated. On top of those views you have political and religious rivalries within Islamic groups. This prevents any sort of longterm cohesive action. About the only unifying element is when Israel and the US act in a way to make them have to worry about that, more than their internal concerns. If it was as simple as you described, that most are united in wanting to kill all jews, there would not be the number of militant groups with different agendas that we see... there would be only one. And indeed if that were the case they'd probably have already succeeded in that goal. Jews are vastly outnumbered and rely on muslims to provide a lot of the day to day work within Israel. Their only possible hope would be (as has always been true in the past for wars) the intervention of other nations (most specifically the US), but even that might not work if it was about wholesale slaughter and not just military actions against the Israeli state.
Have you seen how they are reporting it on Al-jezeera?
Do you watch Al-Jazeera, or do you see what they are reporting based on the lens of whatever biased US media source you happen to watch?
holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode} "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by riVeRraT, posted 08-08-2006 9:35 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Message 12 of 63 (338685)
08-09-2006 8:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 11 by Silent H
08-09-2006 5:01 AM
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Re: True but...
Do you watch Al-Jazeera, or do you see what they are reporting based on the lens of whatever biased US media source you happen to watch? I caught a section on CNN headline news where they showed actual clips, with translations from various news networks over there. After watching the actual footage of what it happening, I can say that they are biased, and their influence will affect how muslims who do not know any better, see the war against them. They do the same thing with us, and never show any of the good that we do for them. It's like watching monkeys in cage, who pocess a serious ability to do harm to others. Tell, what do you think would happen if Iran jumps in and drops a nuke on Israel?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Silent H, posted 08-09-2006 5:01 AM | | Silent H has not replied |
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5894 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 01-09-2002
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Message 13 of 63 (338699)
08-09-2006 9:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 11 by Silent H
08-09-2006 5:01 AM
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Re: True but...
On top of those views you have political and religious rivalries within Islamic groups. This prevents any sort of longterm cohesive action. About the only unifying element is when Israel and the US act in a way to make them have to worry about that, more than their internal concerns. Man, you said a mouth-full here. Just as an example, take Lebanon in the 1982-83 timeframe of the last Israeli invasion. At best estimate, there were 86 (that's right, eighty-six) separate and often mutually hostile factions in the country - the national armies of Israel and Syria aside. You had Moslem vs Moslem rivalry (Mourabitoun vs. Amal, for instance), Christian vs Christian (Suleiman Franjiyah's northerners vs the Beirut factions), secular Druze vs the Palestinian groups and Christian LF and the Lebanese government and the Moslem militias, you had pro-Syrian, anti-Iranian, pro-Lebanese; you had anti-Syrian, pro-Iranian, anti-Lebanese Moslem groups; you had pro-Arafat, anti-Syrian, anti-Lebanese, anti-Shia, anti-Iranian PLO splinters; you had anti-Arafat, pro-Syrian, anti-Iranian PLO factions; pro-Syrian, anti-Iranian, anti-Lebanese Christians; pro-Iranian, anti-Syrian, anti-Lebanese Shia; etc etc etc. You really couldn't tell the players without a program. To assume that there's some monolithic entity that wants to destroy Israel (or whatever), is ignorance of what is really occurring. Of course, the more "collateral damage" inflicted on bystanders, the more of the random collections of groups are going to temporarily forget their individual issues and join up against Israel - and by extension the US. Fortunately most of these groups are "local", rather than internationals. As well, the majority of the Palestinian groups are no longer represented in Lebanon.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Silent H, posted 08-09-2006 5:01 AM | | Silent H has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by riVeRraT, posted 08-09-2006 10:57 PM | | Quetzal has not replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Message 14 of 63 (338848)
08-09-2006 10:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 13 by Quetzal
08-09-2006 9:40 AM
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Re: True but...
Reminds me of a special I saw on Afganistan. They were interviewing a guy from the Northern alliance, and he said, when the enemy lines move past your location, you don't retreat, you just switch sides. If it comes back, you switch sides again.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by Quetzal, posted 08-09-2006 9:40 AM | | Quetzal has not replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5699 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 15 of 63 (339583)
08-12-2006 4:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by nator
08-07-2006 9:09 AM
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For the first time since I can remember, I agree with Schraf. Theus, your worry is pointed towards the wrong religion I am afraid. Allow me to quote an unclassified briefing I gave earlier this week:
This will be an unclassifid brief on President Amadinejad by Tal: (Considering my 1VB audience, I will condense this down to the nuts and bolts and put it in 1VB speak.) President Amadinejad, or as I call him, President Tom, has a Doctorate of Engineering from Tehran university and taught there for many years. He wasn't actually the frontrunner in the last election, but won anyway. Whoopadeedo. The importants stuff: His political and religous views are that Israel needs to be wiped off the map. He's said it publically many times; most recently this week. He believes the Mahdi, or 12th Imam (aka the Islamic Messiah) can only come back if the good Islamic people prepare the way for him; or blow up Israel and the US. This is what's driving his politics. Christianity is simply waiting around for their Messiah (Jesus) to come back and whoop the bad guys. Amadinejad believes he can influence the divine timetable, and thus is paving the way for the Mahdi to return. In essence, the Islamic people must whoop the badguys before the Islamic Messiah returns. The Mahdi belief is shared by ALL of Islam. Not just the nutjobs. I don't have the quote on me (I think its classified, as I didn't turn anything up on google) but Amadinejad said something to the effect that there would be a pin prick that would ignite a great fire...or words to that effect...4 days before the Hezbos performed their raid to kidnap those IDF forces along the Lebanon border. Coincidence? Of course not. Great! Now we've established President Toms motive. But let me illustrate just how pervasive, and how far back, this belief is. Islam also believes in Jesus. Not only thath, but they believe Jesus will return with the Mahdi. When they return, the dead shall rise. Exhibit A Gate Beautiful (Golden Gate)
Islam believes that when Jesus returns, he will enter Jerusalem through this gate. So they did what any good anti-semite would do. They walled the gate up, and burried their warriors all in front of it so that when Jesus returns, there will be a standing army of faithful Muslims waiting for him. That's how far back this thing goes. Let me finish by quoting President Tom from his speech he gave to the UN last September:
quote:
"Dear Friends and Colleagues,
"From the beginning of time, humanity has longed for the day when justice, peace, equality and compassion envelop the world. All of us can contribute to the establishment of such a world. When that day comes, the ultimate promise of all Divine religions will be fulfilled with the emergence of a perfect human being who is heir to all prophets and pious men. He will lead the world to justice and absolute peace. "O mighty Lord, I pray to you to hasten the emergence of your last repository, the promised one, that perfect and pure human being, the one that will fill this world with justice and peace.
Scared yet? This is pre World War III (or IV..or V...or its already started, however you want to look at it) Lines are being drawn. Sides are being chosen. It WILL come down to us, or them, and I don't mean just the freak Islam boys. I mean the entire religion. Not very PC to say, but its the truth nonetheless. If anyone is interested do some research on South America and how terrorists are using the drug trade there, among other things. Oh, and then there is Hugo Chaves who has been quoted as saying that he feels love and compassion for all the Arab people, and might actually be Arab himself.
Wil kill for a Nobel Peace Prize
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by nator, posted 08-07-2006 9:09 AM | | nator has not replied |
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