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Author Topic:   Iraq Assessment
Tal
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 1 of 40 (444379)
12-29-2007 5:43 AM


I found this to be a very interesting read and thought some of you would like to read it as well.
Adjunct Professor of International Affairs
December 18, 2007
MEMORANDUM FOR: Colonel Michael Meese
Professor and Head Dept of Social Sciences
United States Military Academy
1. THE BOTTOM LINE---AN OPERATIONAL ASSESSMENT:
a. VIOLENCE DOWN DRAMATICALLY:
The struggle for stability in the Iraqi Civil War has entered a new phase with dramatically reduced levels of civilian sectarian violence, political assassinations, abductions, and small arms/ indirect fire and IED attacks on US and Iraqi Police and Army Forces.
This is the unmistakable new reality ---and must be taken into account as the US debates its options going forward. The national security debate must move on to an analysis of why this new political and security situation exists---not whether it exists.
General David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker have provided brilliant collective leadership to US Forces and have ably engaged the Iraqi political and military leadership.
b. AL QAEDA TACTICALLY DEFEATED AND TRYING TO REGENERATE:
Al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) has been defeated at a tactical and operational level in Baghdad and Anbar Province and is trying to re-constitute in the north and along the Syrian frontier.
The Iraqi people have turned on AQI because it overreached trying to impose an alien and harsh practice of Islam inconsistent with the more moderate practices of the Sunni minority. (16% of the population.) The foreign jihadist elements in AQI (with their enormous hatred of what they view as the apostate Shia) have alienated the nationalism of the broader Iraqi population. Foreign intervention across the Syrian frontier has dropped substantially. Most border-crossers are suicide bombers who are dead within four days while carrying out largely ineffective attacks on the civilian population and the Iraqi Police.
The senior leaders of AQI have become walking dead men because of the enormous number of civilian intelligence tips coming directly to US Forces. US and Brit Special Operations Forces are deadly against AQI leadership. Essentially AQI has been driven out of Baghdad and is now trying to reconstitute their capabilities.
c. IRAQI SECURITY FORCES KEY FACTOR IN SUCCESSFUL INTERNAL SECURITY:
The Iraqi Security Forces are now beginning to take a major and independent successful role in the war. Under the determined leadership of LTG Jim Dubik ---both the equipment and force levels of the Iraqi Security Forces are now for the first time in the war at a realistic level of resource planning.
The previously grossly ineffective and corrupt Iraqi Police have been forcefully re-trained and re-equipped. The majority of their formerly sectarian police leadership has been replaced. The police are now a mixed bag--- but many local units are now effectively providing security and intelligence penetration of their neighborhoods.
The Iraqi Army has made huge progress in leadership, training, and equipment capability. The embedded US training teams have simply incredible levels of trust and mutual
5
cooperation with their Iraqi counterparts. Corruption remains endemic. However, much remains to be done. This is the center-of-gravity of the war.
The ISF still lacks credibility as a coherent counter-insurgency and deterrent force. It has no national logistics and maintenance system. It lacks any semblance of an Air Force with a robust lift and attack helicopter force and fixed wing C-130 lift to support counter-insurgency. It lacks any semblance of a functioning military medical system to provide country-wide trauma care, evacuation, and rehabilitation. It lacks any artillery with precision munitions to provide stand-off attack of hard targets”or to assist in counter-battery fire to protect the population and military installations. It lacks any serious armor capability to act as a deterrent force to protect national sovereignty. (In my judgment the Army needs 9000+ wheel and track armored vehicles for their 13 combat divisions.)
d. CENTRAL GOVERNMENT DOES NOT WORK:
There is no functional central Iraqi Government. Incompetence, corruption, factional paranoia, and political gridlock have paralyzed the state. The constitution promotes bureaucratic stagnation and factional strife. The budgetary process cannot provide responsive financial support to the military and the police---nor local government for health, education, governance, reconstruction, and transportation.
Mr. Maliki has no political power base and commands no violent militias who have direct allegiance to him personally---making him a non-player in the Iraqi political struggle for dominance in the post-US withdrawal period which looms in front of the Iraqi people.
However, there is growing evidence of the successful re-constitution of local and provincial government. Elections for provincial government are vitally important to creating any possible form of functioning Iraqi state.
e. POPULATION AND REFUGEES IN MISERY:
There are 4 million plus dislocated Iraqis---possibly one in six citizens. Many of the intelligentsia and professional class have fled to Syria, Jordan, or abroad. 60,000 + have been murdered or died in the post-invasion violence. Medical care is primitive. Security and justice for the individual is weak. Many lack clean water or adequate food and a roof over their family. Anger and hatred for the cruelties of the ongoing Civil War overwhelm the desire for reconciliation.
There is widespread disbelief that the Iraqi government can bring the country together. The people (and in particular the women) are sick of the chaotic violence and want an end to the unpredictable violence and the dislocation of the population.
f. ECONOMY SHOWING SIGNS OF COMING BACK:
The economy is slowly reviving--- although there is massive 50% or more unemployment or under-employment.
The electrical system is slowly coming back--- but it is being overwhelmed by huge increases in demand as air conditioners, TV’s, and light industry load the system.
6
The production and distribution of gasoline is increasing but is incapable of keeping up with a gigantic increase in private vehicle and truck ownership.
The Iraqi currency to everyone’s astonishment is very stable and more valued than the weak US dollar.
The agricultural system is under-resourced and poorly managed---it potentially could feed the population and again become a source of export currency earnings.
g. US COMBAT FORCES NOW DOMINATING THE CIVIL WAR:
The morale and tactical effectiveness of engaged US military forces are striking. The "surge" of five additional US Brigade Combat Teams helped. (Although we are now forced to begin an immediate drawdown because of the inadequate resources of the worldwide US Army.)
These combat forces have become the most effective counter-insurgency (and forensic police investigative service) in history. LTG Ray Odierno the MNC-I Commander and his senior commanders have gotten out of their fixed bases and operate at platoon level in concert with small elements of the Iraqi Army and Police. Their aggressive tactics combined with simply brilliant use of the newly energized Provincial Reconstruction Teams (PRT’s -- Superb State Department leadership and participation) for economic development have dramatically changed the tone of the war.
US Forces have now unilaterally constituted some 60,000+ armed "Iraqi Concerned Local Citizen Groups" to the consternation of the Maliki Government. These CLC Groups have added immeasurably to the security of the local populations -- as well as giving a paycheck to unemployed males to support their families. Although the majority of these CLC Groups are Sunnis - increasingly the concept is being extended to Shia Groups south of Baghdad.
The US battalion and brigade commanders have grown up in combat with near continuous operations in the past 20 years in the Balkans, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, and Operation Iraqi Freedom. Many of the Army combat forces are now beginning their 4th round of year+ combat tours in Iraq or Afghanistan. Many of the Marine units are now on their 5th tour of seven month combat deployments. The troops and their leaders are simply fearless---despite 34,000 US killed and wounded.
The US company and battalion commanders now operate as the de facto low-level government of the Iraqi state . schools, health, roads, police, education, governance. The Iraqis tend to defer to US company and battalion commanders based on their respect for their counterparts’ energy, integrity, and the assurance of some level of security. These US combat units have enormous discretion to use CRP Funds to jump start local urban and rural economic and social reconstruction. They are rapidly mentoring and empowering local Iraqi civilian and police leadership.
Direct intelligence cooperation has sky-rocketed. The civilian population provides by-name identification of criminal leadership. They point out IED’s. They directly interact with US forces at low level in much of the country. (There are still 3000+ attacks on US Forces each month . this is still a Civil War.)
7
h. SUNNI ARABS WANT BACK IN--- BEFORE US FORCES DEPART:
The Sunnis Arabs have stopped seeing the US as the enemy and are now cooperating to eliminate AQI -- and to position themselves for the next phase of the Civil War when the US Forces withdraw.
There is no leadership that can speak for all the Sunnis. The former regime elements have now stepped forward ---along with tribal leadership ---to assert some emerging control.
i. SHIA ARABS HOLDING IN CEASEFIRE”STRUGGLE FOR INTERNAL POWER:
The Shia JAM militia under the control of Mr. Sadr have maintained their cease-fire, are giving up rogue elements to be harvested by US Special Operations teams, and are consolidating control over their ethnic cleansing success in Baghdad---as well as maneuvering to dominate the Iranian affiliated Badr brigade forces in the south.
However, Mr. Sadr lost great credibility when his forces violently intervened in the Holy City of Najaf ---and were videoed on national TV and throughout the Arab world carrying out criminal acts against the pilgrims and protectors of the Shia population.
Sadr himself is an enigma. He may well want back into the political process. He is not a puppet of the Iranians and may lack their real support. His command and control of his own forces appears weak. He personally lacks the theological gravitas of a true Shia Islamic scholar like the venerable Sistani. He may be personally fearful of being killed or captured by ISF special operations forces if he is visibly leading inside Iraq . hence his frequent absences to Iran at the sufferance of that government.
j. DOMINANCE OF CRIMINAL ELEMENTS:
There is no clear emerging nation-wide Shia leadership for their 60% of the Iraqi population. It is difficult to separate either Shia or Sunni political factions from Mafia criminal elements-- with a primary focus on looting the government financial system and oil wealth of the nation.
In many cases neighborhoods are dominated by gangs of armed thugs who loosely legitimize their arbitrary violence by implying allegiance to a higher level militia.
The Iraqi justice system . courts, prosecutors, defense attorneys, police investigators, jails for pre-trial confinement, prisons for sentences, integrity of public institutions---does not yet exist. Vengeance is the only operative law of the land. The situation is starting to change. The Iraqi Police will be in charge of most neighborhoods by the end of next year.
k. THE KURDS---AN AUTOMOMOUS SUCCESSFUL REGION:
The Kurds are a successful separate autonomous state---with a functioning and rapidly growing economy, a strong military (Both existing Pesh Merga Forces and nominally Iraqi-Kurdish Army divisions), a free press, relative security, significant foreign
8
investment, and a growing tourist industry which serves as a neutral and safe meeting place for separated and terrified Sunni and Shia Arab families from the south.
There are Five Star hotels, airline connections to Europe, a functioning telephone system, strong trade relations with Syria, enormous mutually beneficial trade relations with Turkey, religious tolerance, a functional justice system, and an apparently enduring cease-fire between the traditional Kurdish warring factions.
Kurdish adventurism and appetite to confront both their external neighbors and the Iraqi central state may have been tempered in a healthy way by the prospect of invasion from the powerful Turkish Armed Forces to avenge the continued cross-border KKP terrorism.
The war-after-next will be the war of the Iraqi Arabs against the Kurds ---when Mosul as well as Kirkuk and its giant oil basin (and an even greater Kurdish claimed buffer zone to the south) is finally and inevitably absorbed (IAW the existing Constitution) by the nascent Kurdish state. The only real solution to this dread inevitability is patient US diplomacy to continually defer the fateful Kurdish decision ad infinitum.
2. THE WAY AHEAD:
a. THE CENTRAL US MILITARY PURPOSE MUST BE TO CREATE ADEQUATE IRAQI SECURITY FORCES:
The Iraqis are the key variable. The center of our military effort must be the creation of well-equipped, trained, and adequately supported Iraqi Police and Army Forces with an operational Air Force and Navy.
We have rapidly decreasing political leverage on the Iraqi factional leadership. It is evident that the American people have no continued political commitment to solving the Iraqi Civil War. The US Armed Forces cannot for much longer impose an internal skeleton of governance and security on 27 million warring people.
The US must achieve our real political objectives to withdraw most US combat forces in the coming 36 months leaving in place:
1st: A stable Iraqi government.
2nd: A strong and responsive Iraqi security force.
3rd: A functioning economy.
4th: Some form of accountable, law-based government.
5th: A government with active diplomatic and security ties to its six neighboring states.
9
b. THE US ARMY IS TOO SMALL AND POORLY RESOURCED TO CONTINUE SUCCESSFUL COUNTER-INSURGENCY OPERATIONS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN AT THE CURRENT LEVEL:
An active counter-insurgency campaign in Iraq could probably succeed in the coming decade with twenty-five US Brigade Combat Teams. (Afghanistan probably needs two more US combat brigades for a total of four in the coming 15 year campaign to create an operational state--- given more robust NATO Forces and ROE). We can probably sustain a force in Iraq indefinitely (given adequate funding) of some 10+ brigades. However, the US Army is starting to unravel.
Our recruiting campaign is bringing into the Army thousands of new soldiers (perhaps 10% of the annual input) who should not be in uniform. (Criminal records, drug use, moral waivers, non-high school graduates, pregnant from Basic Training and therefore non-deployable, lowest mental category, etc.)
We are losing our combat experienced mid-career NCOs’ and Captains at an excessive rate. (ROTC DMG’s, West Pointers, Officers with engineering and business degrees, etc.) Their morale is high, they are proud of their service, they have enormous personal courage---however, they see a nation of 300 million people with only an under resourced Armed Forces at war. The US Army at 400,000 troops is too small to carry out the current military strategy. The active duty US Army needs to be 800,000 strong to guarantee US national security.
The National Guard and Reserves are too small, are inadequately resourced, their equipment is broken or deployed, they are beginning their second involuntary combat deployments, and they did not sign up to be a regular war-fighting force. They have done a superb job in combat but are now in peril of not being ready for serious homeland security missions or deployment to a major shooting war such as Korea.
The modernization of our high technology US Air Force and Navy is imperiled by inadequate Congressional support. Support has focused primarily on the ground war and homeland security with $400 Billion+. We are digging a strategic hole for the US as we mono-focus on counter-insurgency capabilities ---while China inevitably emerges in the coming 15 years as a global military power.
c. HEALING THE MORAL FISSURES IN THE ARMED FORCES:
The leadership of Secretary Bob Gates in DOD has produced a dramatic transformation of our national security effort which under the Rumsfeld leadership was characterized by: a failing under-resourced counter-insurgency strategy; illegal DOD orders on the abuse of human rights; disrespect for the media and the Congress and the other departments of government; massive self-denial on wartime intelligence; and an internal civilian-imposed integrity problem in the Armed Forces---that punished candor, de-centralized operations, and commanders initiative.
Admiral Mullen as CJCS and Admiral Fallon as CENTCOM Commander bring hard-nosed realism and integrity of decision-making to an open and collaborative process which re-emerged as Mr. Rumsfeld left office. (Mr. Rumsfeld was an American patriot, of great personal talent, energy, experience, bureaucratic cleverness, and charisma---who
10
operated with personal arrogance, intimidation and disrespect for the military, lack of forthright candor, avoidance of personal responsibility, and fundamental bad judgment.)
Secretary Gates has turned the situation around with little drama in a remarkable display of wisdom, integrity, and effective senior leadership of a very complex and powerful organization. General Petraeus now has the complete latitude and trust in his own Departmental senior civilian leadership to have successfully changed the command climate in the combat force in Iraq. His commanders now are empowered to act in concert with strategic guidance. They can frankly level with the media and external visitors. I heard this from many senior leaders -- from three star General to Captain Company commanders.
3. THE END GAME:
It is too late to decide on the Iraqi exit strategy with the current Administration. However, the Secretary of Defense and CENTCOM can set the next Administration up for success by getting down to 12 + Brigade Combat teams before January of 2009 ---and by massively resourcing the creation of an adequate Iraqi Security Force.
We also need to make the case to Congress that significant US financial resources are needed to get the Iraqi economy going. ($3 billion per year for five years.) The nation-building process is the key to a successful US Military withdrawal---and will save enormous money and grief in the long run to avoid a failed Iraqi state.
Clearly we must continue the current sensible approach by Secretary of State Rice to open dialog with Syria, Turkey, and the Iranians---and to focus Arab attention with Saudi leadership on a US diplomatic offensive to mitigate the confrontation between Israel and the Arab states. We must also build a coalition to mitigate the dangers of a nuclear armed Iran.
The dysfunctional central government of Iraq, the warring Shia/Sunni/Kurdish factions, and the unworkable Iraqi constitution will only be put right by the Iraqis in their own time---and in their own way. It is entirely credible that a functioning Iraqi state will slowly emerge from the bottom up . with a small US military and diplomatic presence holding together in loose fashion the central government. The US must also hold at bay Iraq’s neighbors from the desperate mischief they might cause that could lead to all out Civil War with regional involvement.
A successful withdrawal from Iraq with the emergence of a responsible unified Iraqi nation is vitally important to the security of the American people and the Mid-East. We are clearly no longer on a downward spiral. However, the ultimate outcome is still quite seriously in doubt.
Barry R McCaffrey
General USA (Ret)
Adjunct Professor of International Affairs
Department of Social Sciences, USMA
West Point, NY.
I notice that he's not saying much about Iranian involvement in Shia groups. That is THE problem in our part of Baghdad. AQI is worthless as an organization, but the JAM Special Groups that recieve funding and training from Iran have been able to carry out effective attacks, even if the effectiveness has dropped dramatically in the last 6 or so months.

We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Rrhain, posted 12-29-2007 6:06 AM Tal has replied
 Message 4 by Modulous, posted 12-29-2007 3:33 PM Tal has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 260 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 2 of 40 (444382)
12-29-2007 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
12-29-2007 5:43 AM


You do realize that "Al Qaeda in Iraq" was never of any real significance, right? And that it has nothing to do with Al Qaeda, right? And that it didn't exist until we showed up in Iraq, right? And that it is nothing more than the Bush Administration trying to confuse the American public into thinking that Iraq had something to do with the terrorist attacks, right?
And the lack of historical knowledge is depressing. Yes, violence is down...to the same levels it was when we were saying the level of violence was unacceptable.
And the electrical grid is still in shambles, providing only an hour or two of electricity per household per day. It was better before we invaded and we still haven't fixed it.
The "surge" did nothing. It simply moved the violence from where we were to where we weren't.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 12-29-2007 5:43 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Tal, posted 12-29-2007 9:14 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 6 by Tal, posted 12-30-2007 2:25 AM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 14 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-30-2007 8:15 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 3 of 40 (444398)
12-29-2007 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rrhain
12-29-2007 6:06 AM


You do realize that "Al Qaeda in Iraq" was never of any real significance, right? And that it has nothing to do with Al Qaeda, right?
Wrong. They were here and some are still around. I know. I did targeting packets on several of them. I've read the intelligence reports from the HUMINT collectors. I talk with the HUMINT collectors. We've captured and killed AQI leaders, facilitators, financers, and disrupted AQI IED cells. The guys we capture tell us they work for AQI. 1-26 INF (Blue Spaders) lost alot of guys to AQI. My unit had to do the catastrophic recoveries of the vehicles and the remains. I personally did the briefs and debriefs for those missions.
The "surge" did nothing. It simply moved the violence from where we were to where we weren't.
I disgree. Significant activity is WAY down from when we (2BCT, 82d Airborne, 1st Brigade of the Surge) arrived here a year ago. I can't get into specifics because it is still classified, but IEDs, Sniper attacks, grenade attacks, small arms fire, and RPG attacks are all WAY down from this time last year. I'm guessing you have no sources for your claim since you didn't list/link anything.

We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Rrhain, posted 12-29-2007 6:06 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Rrhain, posted 12-30-2007 2:38 AM Tal has replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 237 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 4 of 40 (444483)
12-29-2007 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
12-29-2007 5:43 AM


Hopefully this trend will continue and hopefully those that are responsible for allowing the violence to reach the levels it did will be punished in an appropriate fashion.
Source
The numbers are still unacceptable, of course. Over 1 lethal-force attack per day per 28,000 people is terrible. Halving that is good, but the situation is still far from good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 12-29-2007 5:43 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tal, posted 12-30-2007 2:11 AM Modulous has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 5 of 40 (444618)
12-30-2007 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Modulous
12-29-2007 3:33 PM


Hopefully this trend will continue and hopefully those that are responsible for allowing the violence to reach the levels it did will be punished in an appropriate fashion.
Oh yes those responsible have systematically targeted and dealt with. As a result we've seen a huge drop in violence. Currently Iran is the primary culprit of violence in our AO and AI (area of operation, area of interest) and I'm with you. They should definately be punished in an appropriate fashion.
Glad we agree.
Edited by Tal, : No reason given.

We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Modulous, posted 12-29-2007 3:33 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Modulous, posted 12-30-2007 9:26 AM Tal has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 6 of 40 (444621)
12-30-2007 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rrhain
12-29-2007 6:06 AM


You do realize that "Al Qaeda in Iraq" was never of any real significance, right? And that it has nothing to do with Al Qaeda, right?
Just thougth I'd finish quashing this nonsense.
CAIRO, Egypt ” Usama bin Laden warned Iraq's Sunni Arabs against fighting Al Qaeda...
Iraq's interior ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Abdul Kareem Khalaf claimed that 75 percent of Al Qaeda in Iraq's terrorist network had been destroyed in 2007, and gave some of the credit to the rise of anti-Al Qaeda in Iraq councils.
Source
I guess UBL is a part of the right wing misinformation machine as well as Iraq's interior minister.
Edited by Tal, : No reason given.
Edited by Tal, : Added a space

We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Rrhain, posted 12-29-2007 6:06 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 260 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 7 of 40 (444623)
12-30-2007 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tal
12-29-2007 9:14 AM


Tal responds to me:
quote:
I did targeting packets on several of them.
Irrelevant. I didn't say they were a figment of the imagination. I said they had no connection to Al Qaeda and were of no real significance.
Do you have any evidence otherwise? You're the one claiming they were of some concern, therefore it is your burden of proof. But since you ask, I'll take on your burden:
The Washington Post, March 18, 2007, "Al-Qaeda in Iraq May Not Be Threat Here"
Al-Qaeda in Iraq is the United States’ most formidable enemy in that country. But unlike Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda organization in Pakistan, U.S. intelligence officials and outside experts believe, the Iraqi branch poses little danger to the security of the U.S. homeland.
Later in that same article:
The Sunni extremist movement in Iraq owes its existence to the U.S. invasion, said Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism expert and Georgetown University professor. “There were no domestic jihadis in Iraq before we came there. Now there are. . . . But the threat they pose beyond Iraq is not so certain. There will be plenty of fighting to keep them there for years.”
So where is your evidence, Tal?
quote:
I can't get into specifics because it is still classified, but IEDs, Sniper attacks, grenade attacks, small arms fire, and RPG attacks are all WAY down from this time last year.
Bullshit. Violence levels are not classified. It's how we know that the level of violence hasn't decreased from where it was a year ago when it was considered unacceptable.
And burden of proof is on you. You're the one who needs to justify your claim.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tal, posted 12-29-2007 9:14 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Tal, posted 12-30-2007 4:38 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 8 of 40 (444640)
12-30-2007 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rrhain
12-30-2007 2:38 AM


Hey, don't let facts get in the way of your beliefs.

We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Rrhain, posted 12-30-2007 2:38 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Rrhain, posted 12-30-2007 4:40 AM Tal has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 260 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 9 of 40 (444641)
12-30-2007 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tal
12-30-2007 4:38 AM


Tal responds to me:
quote:
Hey, don't let facts get in the way of your beliefs.
Then you have evidence to back up your claims?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tal, posted 12-30-2007 4:38 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Tal, posted 12-30-2007 4:47 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 10 of 40 (444642)
12-30-2007 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Rrhain
12-30-2007 4:40 AM


Besides what I've already posted?
Sure, I'll even use the Washington Post.
U.S. Kills a Leader Of Al-Qaeda in Iraq
A senior leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq responsible for bringing foreign fighters into the country and seizing and executing U.S. soldiers in 2006 was killed Monday in an American airstrike, the U.S. military said yesterday.
The death of the leader, a native of Tunisia who went by the pseudonym Abu Usama al-Tunisi, represents a "significant blow" to the Sunni insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq
Insurgent Leader Al-Zarqawi Killed in Iraq
BAGHDAD, June 8 --Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the mastermind behind hundreds of bombings, kidnappings and beheadings in Iraq, was killed early Wednesday by an airstrike --north of Baghdad, U.S. and Iraqi officials said Thursday.
Zarqawi, a Jordanian-born high-school dropout whose leadership of the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq made him the most wanted man in Iraq, was killed along with several other people near the city of Baqubah, the officials said.

We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Rrhain, posted 12-30-2007 4:40 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Rrhain, posted 12-30-2007 5:01 AM Tal has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 260 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 11 of 40 (444645)
12-30-2007 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tal
12-30-2007 4:47 AM


Tal responds to me:
quote:
Besides what I've already posted?
What you posted didn't go to the question as to whether AQI was of any consequence, existed before we went in there, or had any connections to Al Qaeda.
Neither of your links speaks to those items, either. Again, I am not saying AQI is a figment of the imagination. I am pointing out, as was shown, that AQI was of no real significance, did not exist until we showed up, and has no connection to Al Qaeda.
Where is your evidence that "Al Qaeda in Iraq" has any connection to Al Qaeda? Again, pointing out that al-Zarqawi pledged allegiance to Al Qaeda is not sufficient. That simply points him out to be a wannabe. You have to show that there was any dealings between the two or that Al Qaeda established Al Qaeda in Iraq.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tal, posted 12-30-2007 4:47 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Tal, posted 12-30-2007 5:17 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 12 of 40 (444647)
12-30-2007 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Rrhain
12-30-2007 5:01 AM


Wow.
You should run for public office.

We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Rrhain, posted 12-30-2007 5:01 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 01-01-2008 1:40 AM Tal has replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 237 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 13 of 40 (444667)
12-30-2007 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tal
12-30-2007 2:11 AM


Oh yes those responsible have systematically targeted and dealt with. As a result we've seen a huge drop in violence. Currently Iran is the primary culprit of violence in our AO and AI (area of operation, area of interest) and I'm with you. They should definately be punished in an appropriate fashion.
Glad we agree.
I was of course being generic. While we agree on certain responsible parties, we almost certainly disagree on others. Anyone who makes a decision like "Let's fire everybody with any skill in the office-work required to run a government. Oh. And let's make unemployed all those people who are trained in warfare and who also know where the Iraqi weapons caches are stored: they are the demographic we really want to piss off and disenfranchise in an effort to win hearts and minds" should be held responsible for the inevitable and obvious consequences, for example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tal, posted 12-30-2007 2:11 AM Tal has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 40 (444779)
12-30-2007 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rrhain
12-29-2007 6:06 AM


The Surge
You do realize that "Al Qaeda in Iraq" was never of any real significance, right?
Al Qaeda in Iraq has always been a significant problem. Of those that aren't specifically attached to an AQ cell are still sympathizers with AQ's goals and aspirations, making it more than significant.
And that it didn't exist until we showed up in Iraq, right?
That much is true.
And that it is nothing more than the Bush Administration trying to confuse the American public into thinking that Iraq had something to do with the terrorist attacks, right?
There are plenty of Saddam and Ba'ath loyalists who still exist. I'm sure their numbers have diminished considerably, but they exist.
Yes, violence is down...to the same levels it was when we were saying the level of violence was unacceptable.
If you were the president, what would you do to solve the Iraq issue? Would you pull out immediately, would you withdraw slowly, would you stay to stabilize the country?
And the electrical grid is still in shambles, providing only an hour or two of electricity per household per day. It was better before we invaded and we still haven't fixed it.
Rrhain.... Its a warzone, not a stripmall -- arguably the least destructive war.
The "surge" did nothing. It simply moved the violence from where we were to where we weren't.
I was skeptical... But it appears the Surge has worked. The question is, for how long? Supposing it holds, when will we pull out? What is this Administration's measure of success? It seems as long as there are martyr's for the cause, the war will continue until one side loses heart... that side will likely be the Coalition, because AQ doesn't give a rats ass. I'll have to say that their resolve is quite impressive.

“First dentistry was painless, then bicycles were chainless, and carriages were horseless, and many laws enforceless. Next cookery was fireless, telegraphy was wireless, cigars were nicotineless, and coffee caffeineless. Soon oranges were seedless, the putting green was weedless, the college boy was hatless, the proper diet -- fatless. New motor roads are dustless, the latest steel is rustless, our tennis courts are sodless, our new religion -- Godless” -Arthur Guiterman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Rrhain, posted 12-29-2007 6:06 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by obvious Child, posted 12-31-2007 4:21 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 19 by Rrhain, posted 01-01-2008 2:11 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 15 of 40 (444846)
12-31-2007 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Hyroglyphx
12-30-2007 8:15 PM


Re: The Surge
I'll be a monkey's uncle.
I seem to agree with you on a wide variety of subjects outside of evolution and creation.
As for the surge, how do we know the majority of it is due to Sadr's withdraw of the Mahdi Army? Do we just wait and see what happens when the 30,000 additional troops leave? Seems kind of risky.
My question is why didn't the US just make up some reason that would make AQ stay quiet for a while, such as a timed withdraw and simply just lie about it therefore using the time to bulk up the Iraqi army and take control as AQ lies dormant?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-30-2007 8:15 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Tal, posted 12-31-2007 8:25 AM obvious Child has replied
 Message 20 by Rrhain, posted 01-01-2008 2:15 AM obvious Child has replied

  
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