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Author Topic:   truth preserving logic?(value of human life)
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 1 of 151 (335986)
07-28-2006 8:19 AM


p1: Things that are of value can be taken away
p2: Human life can be taken away
p3: Human life is valuable
Do you think this argument is truth preserving? If not, can a truth preserving argument for human life valuable be made?
I appreciate your insight.
Edited by -messenjah of one, : misword
Edited by -messenjah of one, : typo

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 2 of 151 (335988)
07-28-2006 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
07-28-2006 8:19 AM


To me, that looks like bad logic.
It seems to be of the form:
If A then B;
B;
therefore A.
But you cannot do that.

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 Message 1 by Trump won, posted 07-28-2006 8:19 AM Trump won has replied

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 3 of 151 (335989)
07-28-2006 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
07-28-2006 8:23 AM


Is there then a way for establishing an argument for the value for human life in a truth preserving fashion?

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 Message 5 by Brian, posted 07-28-2006 8:38 AM Trump won has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 4 of 151 (335990)
07-28-2006 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
07-28-2006 8:19 AM


silly gism
Hi wee man good to have you back.
You have posted an argument with a logical conclusion. However, it is an invalid arguement because your premises are faulty.
For example, you say that things that are of great value can be taken away, but so can things that are of NO, or very little value, so an equally logical argument could be that human life has no value.
Also, you would have people disagreeing with you over the definition of 'value'. To some people their memories of past events are valuable, to others material goods are valuable, so there could be a problem there.
So, although your argument is a logical conclusion based on the premises, the premises are not sound.
Brian.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 5 of 151 (335992)
07-28-2006 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Trump won
07-28-2006 8:28 AM


Is there then a way for establishing an argument for the value for human life in a truth preserving fashion?
Short answer is 'no'.
Problem being is over subjectiveness of the researcher.
You would need an objective source that verifies that human life is valuable.
Of course no one is completely objective, but if you at least try it and look at how many humans treat other humans then you would have to conclude that human life isnt really all that valuable.
Even looking at Israel today. Murdering over 300 innocent civilians because a terrorist group has kidnapped 2 soldiers is an appalling disregard for human life.
Look at other countries, Rwanda, or China, history is littered with examples.
Brian.

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 Message 6 by Trump won, posted 07-28-2006 8:43 AM Brian has replied
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 6 of 151 (335993)
07-28-2006 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brian
07-28-2006 8:38 AM


quote:
Problem being is over subjectiveness of the researcher.
I regretfully resign that I understand and know this and I had predicted the outcome of my question before I asked.
quote:
Of course no one is completely objective, but if you at least try it and look at how many humans treat other humans then you would have to conclude that human life isnt really all that valuable.
Even looking at Israel today. Murdering over 300 innocent civilians because a terrorist group has kidnapped 2 soldiers is an appalling disregard for human life.
Look at other countries, Rwanda, or China, history is littered with examples.
Now you know the solution to this Brian?
Complete and utter altruism. One must forgo his animalistic tendencies and become selfless. To act only on second order volitions to help others, not on first order desires.
My basis for this?
The categorical imperative one and two, Christ's famous words of love one another.
Edited by -messenjah of one, : emphasis
Edited by -messenjah of one, : typo of bold word

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 Message 5 by Brian, posted 07-28-2006 8:38 AM Brian has replied

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 Message 9 by Brian, posted 07-28-2006 8:52 AM Trump won has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 7 of 151 (335997)
07-28-2006 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Trump won
07-28-2006 8:43 AM


Complete and utter altuism. One must forgo his animalistic tendencies and become selfless. To act only on second order volitions to help others, not on first order desires.
Have you ever flown on an airline?
They tell you that, in case the oxygen masks deploy, you should put on your own mask first before helping others. And there is a good reason. If you are not getting enough oxygen, you won't be much good at helping others. You often have to do things for yourself, since otherwise you will lose the ability to help others. Pure altruism doesn't work.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 8 of 151 (335998)
07-28-2006 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by nwr
07-28-2006 8:48 AM


Pure altruism doesn't work for those that value their own life over others.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 9 of 151 (335999)
07-28-2006 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Trump won
07-28-2006 8:43 AM


My basis for this?
The categorical imperative one and two, Christ's famous words of love one another.
Well, Christ wasn't anywhere near being the first person to say those words, Buddha certainly said this 600 years or so before Jesus.
But didn't Christ tell George Bush to go into Iraq?
Complete altruism is an ideology, it is beyond most people.
Brian.
PS, have you been listening to the blues again?

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 10 of 151 (336000)
07-28-2006 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Brian
07-28-2006 8:52 AM


I listen to folk music and John Frusciante mostly. Blues doesn't really do it for me.
And for you to assume that I am in a state of turmoil to hold this position is weak.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 11 of 151 (336001)
07-28-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Brian
07-28-2006 8:52 AM


PS: the fact that the Buddha said those words 600 yrs earlier makes them in no way less valid

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 Message 9 by Brian, posted 07-28-2006 8:52 AM Brian has replied

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 Message 12 by Brian, posted 07-28-2006 9:03 AM Trump won has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 12 of 151 (336005)
07-28-2006 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Trump won
07-28-2006 8:57 AM


I just wondered why you attributed then to someone with whom the words did not originate.
Brian.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 13 of 151 (336006)
07-28-2006 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Brian
07-28-2006 9:03 AM


My environment. I wasn't raised in the East.

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 Message 12 by Brian, posted 07-28-2006 9:03 AM Brian has replied

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 Message 14 by Brian, posted 07-28-2006 9:13 AM Trump won has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 14 of 151 (336007)
07-28-2006 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Trump won
07-28-2006 9:05 AM


Neither was I.
Anyway, back on topic.
Why do you think human life is valuable?
Brian.

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 Message 17 by Trump won, posted 07-28-2006 12:13 PM Brian has replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 15 of 151 (336008)
07-28-2006 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Brian
07-28-2006 9:13 AM


I would reply after 11am but I realize your enlightenment takes consequence over my dire business.
quote:
Why do you think human life is valuable?
Human life is valuable for a whole array of reasons, after I complete a paper I am producing on the subject, I will outline why.
Give me 10 mins.
Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote
Edited by -messenjah of one, : smile

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Replies to this message:
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