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Author Topic:   The great Jimmy Carter
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 77 (26921)
12-16-2002 10:53 PM


For those who didn't see it, here is the transcrips of Jimmy Carter's Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech.
I watched it, and it was wonderful. Some excerpts are below:
Alternet.org
"He went on to say: "To suggest that war can prevent war is a base play on words and a despicable form of warmongering. The objective of any who sincerely believe in peace clearly must be to exhaust every honorable recourse in the effort to save the peace. The world has had ample evidence that war begets only conditions that beget further war.
We must remember that today there are at least eight nuclear powers on earth, and three of them are threatening to their neighbors in areas of great international tension. For powerful countries to adopt a principle of preventive war may well set an example that can have catastrophic consequences..."
"...In order for us human beings to commit ourselves personally to the inhumanity of war, we find it necessary first to dehumanize our opponents, which is in itself a violation of the beliefs of all religions. Once we characterize our adversaries as beyond the scope of God's mercy and grace, their lives lose all value. We deny personal responsibility when we plant landmines and, days or years later, a stranger to us - often a child - is crippled or killed. From a great distance, we launch bombs or missiles with almost total impunity, and never want to know the number or identity of the victims..."
"...But tragically, in the industrialized world there is a terrible absence of understanding or concern about those who are enduring lives of despair and hopelessness. We have not yet made the commitment to share with others an appreciable part of our excessive wealth. This is a potentially rewarding burden that we should all be willing to assume.
Ladies and gentlemen:
War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always an evil, never a good. We will not learn how to live together in peace by killing each other's children.
The bond of our common humanity is stronger than the divisiveness of our fears and prejudices. God gives us the capacity for choice. We can choose to alleviate suffering. We can choose to work together for peace. We can make these changes - and we must."

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by gene90, posted 12-17-2002 12:35 AM nator has replied
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gene90
Member (Idle past 3844 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 3 of 77 (26931)
12-17-2002 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
12-16-2002 10:53 PM


This is the same "Great" Jimmy Carter that let the US embassy staff be brutalized in Tehran, correct?
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 10:53 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 12-17-2002 1:39 AM gene90 has not replied
 Message 6 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 8:40 AM gene90 has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 4 of 77 (26935)
12-17-2002 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by gene90
12-17-2002 12:35 AM


gene90 writes:
This is the same "Great" Jimmy Carter that let the US embassy staff be brutalized in Tehran, correct?
Jimmy Carter is a wonderful person and a great humanitarian, and his Nobel prize is well deserved, but he was possibly this century's worst US president. Even so, this view of the Iran Embassy crisis of the late 70s seems not only harsh but difficult to justify.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by gene90, posted 12-17-2002 12:35 AM gene90 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 5 of 77 (26960)
12-17-2002 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Percy
12-17-2002 1:39 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
gene90 writes:
This is the same "Great" Jimmy Carter that let the US embassy staff be brutalized in Tehran, correct?
Jimmy Carter is a wonderful person and a great humanitarian, and his Nobel prize is well deserved, but he was possibly this century's worst US president. Even so, this view of the Iran Embassy crisis of the late 70s seems not only harsh but difficult to justify.
--Percy

I'd vote Ronald Reagan as the worst president. In a heartbeat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 12-17-2002 1:39 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by RedVento, posted 12-17-2002 9:39 AM nator has replied
 Message 68 by derwood, posted 01-21-2003 11:31 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 6 of 77 (26961)
12-17-2002 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by gene90
12-17-2002 12:35 AM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
This is the same "Great" Jimmy Carter that let the US embassy staff be brutalized in Tehran, correct?
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-17-2002]

How bloody predictable.
Tell me, have you been watching Rush Limbaugh or something?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by gene90, posted 12-17-2002 12:35 AM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
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RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 77 (26969)
12-17-2002 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by nator
12-17-2002 8:38 AM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
gene90 writes:
This is the same "Great" Jimmy Carter that let the US embassy staff be brutalized in Tehran, correct?
Jimmy Carter is a wonderful person and a great humanitarian, and his Nobel prize is well deserved, but he was possibly this century's worst US president. Even so, this view of the Iran Embassy crisis of the late 70s seems not only harsh but difficult to justify.
--Percy

I'd vote Ronald Reagan as the worst president. In a heartbeat.

The same Ronald Reagan that had a major part in ending the Cold War? Who's economic programs were responsible for revitilizing the economy destroyed by Jimmy Carter? Who's economic policy set the tone for the economic success during the Clinton administration? Yea Reagen sure was a terrible president. He did nothing to help the US or its Allies.
But wait, we have Jimmy Carter who INSISTED that North Korea was no threat.. Well apparantly he was a bit off on that estimation. Besides building houses for people please tell me what he has actually contributed to peace in the world. And while your at it please tell me what makes Reagen the "worst" president of all time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 8:38 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 11:34 AM RedVento has replied
 Message 12 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-17-2002 12:11 PM RedVento has replied

RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 77 (26974)
12-17-2002 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
12-16-2002 10:53 PM


Lets see what the history of Jimmy Carter Unveils.
http://www.politixgroup.com/comm112.htm :
"The thing about politics is that it is often very difficult to objectively decide who is right and who is wrong. Looking at the economic boom of the 1990s, for example, Republicans take credit for having control of the Congress which has the power of the purse, Democrats take credit for having he White House which usually takes credit or blame when the economy changes. But one thing I thought could be agreed upon was that Jimmy Carter’s presidency and his foreign policy was a failure. So why is he still being given a platform for his agenda after all these years of being wrong?
Most historians and political scientists agree that the Carter presidency was not a success. Whether it was his policies directly or the circumstances surrounding his tenure of office was a question at the time, but is now pretty much accepted that his policies were not very sound. Among these policies included humanitarianisman effort to improve human rights around the world no matter what the regime. While well-intentioned, this policy failed to recognize the primary threat to the United States at the timecommunism. After Carter left office, he developed an impressive reputation as a humanitarian and has done some good things as shown as his work in Habitat for Humanity. But as ex-president, Carter continued to advocate for his failed policies despite glaring evidence that he was just plain wrong. Reagan’s tough anti-communist policies helped to bring about the end of the Soviet Union. Carter’s Camp David deal between Egypt and Israel did not improve the Middle East situation as shown by the chaos in that region today.
During George W. Bush’s term, Cater has offered his criticism yet again. His first statement of Bush went something like I’m disappointed in almost everything has done, a rather harsh statement from a former president of the United States. During the War on Terrorism, Carter has been an outspoken critic of Bush’s unilateralism and does not seem to recognize that this policy is meant to improve human rights around the world. For his constant criticism of Bush’s policy to defeat terrorism, Carter was given the Nobel Peace Prize, the distinguished award once given to Yassir Arafat. Most recently, the world was given more evidence of Carter’s failed policiesthe boasting of North Korea that they are now in possession of a nuclear weapon.
In an Op-Ed piece in the New York Times, Carter explains Responding to a standing invitation from North Korean President Kim Il Sung and with the approval of President Bill Clinton, I went to Pyongyang and helped to secure an agreement that North Korea would cease its nuclear program at Yongbyon and permit I.A.E.A. inspectors to return to the site to assure that the spent fuel was not reprocessed. While Carter is correct saying that we are not sure that they have a nuclear weapon or not, he admits that If true, this is a gross violation of previous agreements and a threat to peace in the region. Carter, as usual, urges diplomacy to solve this situation. The problem is not with his means of solving the problem, but with his lack of realization of his own failure. Diplomacy was obviously the incorrect avenue for resolving the North Korea situation shown by their continuing to develop a nuclear weapon. Nowhere in Carter’s piece does he recognize that his diplomatic effort failed. Instead, he urges for more of the same failed policies that lead to the current situation.
This is a problem common throughout America today. The caption under the article says reads, Jimmy Carter, the 39th president of the United States, is chairman of the Carter Center in Atlanta and won the Nobel Peace Prize this year. A caption like this gives the impression that he is someone that should be listened to. But why is there not anything that says that all of his foreign policy ideas have been incorrect? This is the equivalent of asking Carter to weigh in on a U.S. energy crisis, another thing he failed miserably at while president. Too often, we are willing to accept the advice of unsuccessful people just because they tried. It is not enough to give these people a venue to spew their misinformation and propaganda. Jimmy Carter should continue to do what he does bestkeep quiet and build houses. "
And from Beyond the Myth: Remembering Jimmy Carter, the President :
"Beyond the Myth: Remembering Jimmy Carter, the President By Joseph Nevins
Jimmy Carter's recent pronouncements on U.S. policy are befitting of the Nobel Peace Prize that he received on Tuesday in Oslo, Norway. He has called upon the United States to take the lead in global disarmament by eliminating its stockpiles of chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. He has also publicly criticized the Bush White House for its unilateralist warmongering against Iraq, and its one-sided policy favoring Israel and its illegal occupation of Palestinian lands.
Such words--combined with his work in resolving conflicts and overseeing elections around the world, and in supporting socio-economic development for the poor--have helped to earn Carter a reputation as a man of peace and human rights. But this, combined with a certain mythology surrounding his administration, has led many to mistakenly conflate Carter's post-White House life with his presidential years. It was during this time (1977-80) that he was best positioned to implement policies conforming to his present-day reputation. Here, Carter's record is far less flattering. If for no other reason than historical accuracy, it is time to take stock of that record.
Writing in the memoirs of his presidency, Carter stated that prior to taking office, he had been "deeply troubled by the lies our people had been told; our exclusion from the shaping of American political and military policy in Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile and other countries; and other embarrassing activities of our government." But despite such moving prose, Carter the president made no efforts to provide restitution to those victimized by these "embarrassing activities."
In the case of Vietnam, Carter was hardly a strong critic of the American war, one that killed 2-3 million Vietnamese. As governor of Georgia, he responded to the 1971 sentencing of Lt. William Calley of My Lai massacre infamy by calling upon his fellow Georgians to "honor the flag" as Calley had done, and to leave their headlights on to show their support. As president, he explained in 1977 that that there was no need to dispense monies to Vietnam to repair damage caused by Washington's war of aggression --as stipulated by a secret protocol to the Paris Peace Treaty--nor even to apologize to the Vietnamese people as "the destruction was mutual."
Carter's refusal to repent for past American wrongdoing was not limited to Vietnam. His administration also repudiated the "profoundest regrets" expressed by a U.S. official at the United Nations Human Rights Commission for the American role in overthrowing the democratically elected Allende government in Chile in 1973 and backing the Pinochet regime.
How one understands and accounts for the past informs how one behaves in the present. Thus, while Carter did use his presidential power in some instances to support human rights--such as cutting off military aid to a number of South American dictatorships--many of his policies followed a long-standing Washington practice of supporting authoritarian governments in the name of a narrowly defined set of global interests.
Carter lauded and supported the brutal regime of the Shah of Iran until the bitter end, for example. In Nicaragua, his administration provided significant support to the hated Somoza dictatorship. And in El Salvador, he extended large amounts of military and economic aid to a country whose army was engaging in widespread massacres, even after the slaying of its Catholic archbishop, and four Americans--three Maryknoll nuns and one lay churchworker.
In the case of Indonesia's illegal invasion and occupation of East Timor, Carter followed a similar path. In late 1977, when Indonesia was actually running out of military equipment, his administration authorized a dramatic increase in arms sales to Jakarta. And over the next several months, the Carter White House approved sales of fighter jets and ground-attack bombers to Indonesia's Suharto regime, whose military employed them in East Timor to bomb and napalm the population into submission. An Australian parliamentary commission would later characterize the period as one of "indiscriminate killing on a scale unprecedented in post-World War II history."
For such reasons, it is a mistake to present the human rights record of Carter's presidency as qualitatively different from those that came before and after. Indeed, Carter's support for brutal regimes, combined with the significant growth in military spending that he oversaw during his White House years, helped to lay the foundation for the even more odious policies of the Reagan years that followed.
Remembering the true Jimmy Carter allows us to draw lessons about the global role of the United States and to act accordingly and, hopefully, to help build a world more consistent with the principles of peace and human rights."
So before we go on patting ourselves on the back for realizing what a great man Jimmy Carter is lets be clear on his history, and on what he has actually DONE. Its easy to talk about peace, its a lot harder to actually bring it around. And for goodness sake, these are the same people who gave Arafat the peace prize. Now there is a real humanitarian.
[This message has been edited by RedVento, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 10:53 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 9 of 77 (26989)
12-17-2002 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RedVento
12-17-2002 9:39 AM


quote:
Originally posted by RedVento:
quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
gene90 writes:
This is the same "Great" Jimmy Carter that let the US embassy staff be brutalized in Tehran, correct?
Jimmy Carter is a wonderful person and a great humanitarian, and his Nobel prize is well deserved, but he was possibly this century's worst US president. Even so, this view of the Iran Embassy crisis of the late 70s seems not only harsh but difficult to justify.
--Percy

I'd vote Ronald Reagan as the worst president. In a heartbeat.

The same Ronald Reagan that had a major part in ending the Cold War? Who's economic programs were responsible for revitilizing the economy destroyed by Jimmy Carter? Who's economic policy set the tone for the economic success during the Clinton administration? Yea Reagen sure was a terrible president. He did nothing to help the US or its Allies.
But wait, we have Jimmy Carter who INSISTED that North Korea was no threat.. Well apparantly he was a bit off on that estimation. Besides building houses for people please tell me what he has actually contributed to peace in the world. And while your at it please tell me what makes Reagen the "worst" president of all time.

Ronald Reagan did his best to widen the gap between rich and poor people in our country.
He gave huge tax cuts to the richest Americans while increasing the burden for the average person.
He balooned the national debt to untold size with his economic policies. The debt increased by approximately 450% between when Reagan took office and when George Bush left office. We are still feeling the effects of that today.
He gutted environmental protection laws.
Started the utterly ineffective "war on drugs" which puts lots of people in prison, has us make friends with groups like the Taliban, but hasn't reduced drug use.
The Iran-Contra affair.
Some 30 members of his staff spent time in prison for bribery, corruption, and influence peddling...and those are just the ones who got caught.
He appointed both Rhenquist and Scalia to the Supreme Court.
He cut educational grants (including one of mine while I was in college), making it more difficult for poorer people to send their children to college.
He actively opposed labor unions and supported big business.
He didn't do squat to help the poor or disadvantaged. Programs that helped poor people, like housing subsidies and school lunch programs were cut disproportionally to others like Social Security.
He was supportive of many issues of the Christian Radical Right, including ammending the constitution to force Christian prayer in schools.
He ignored the emergence of AIDS for several years and then still didn't do much about it.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RedVento, posted 12-17-2002 9:39 AM RedVento has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 11:52 AM nator has replied
 Message 15 by RedVento, posted 12-17-2002 12:38 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 10 of 77 (26990)
12-17-2002 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by nator
12-17-2002 11:34 AM


Some Reagan gems:
"Approximately 80% of our air pollution stems from hydrocarbons released by vegetation. So let's not go overboard in setting and enforcing tough emissions standards for man-made sources."
"Why should we subsidize intellectual curiosity?"
"IF YOU'VE SEEN ONE REDWOOD TREE, YOU'VE SEEN THEM ALL."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 11:34 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 11 of 77 (26992)
12-17-2002 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by nator
12-17-2002 11:52 AM


Here is a brief rundown of what Carter has done to promote peace in the world.
Page not found - Nuclear Age Peace Foundation
It's a helluva lot more than any of the past republican presidents have ever done.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by RedVento, posted 12-17-2002 12:28 PM nator has replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3945
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 12 of 77 (26993)
12-17-2002 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by RedVento
12-17-2002 9:39 AM


quote:
The same Ronald Reagan that had a major part in ending the Cold War?
The Ronald Reagan who showed that the U.S. could better survive the flushing of vast amounts of money down the "military industrial complex" toilet.
Also, I'm personally not certain the world is better off with the post-Soviet Russia, than it was with the "Evil Empire".
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RedVento, posted 12-17-2002 9:39 AM RedVento has replied

Replies to this message:
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RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 77 (26997)
12-17-2002 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by nator
12-17-2002 11:57 AM


Lets see, the first two things that link mentions are mid east peace.. and the North Koreans..
Peace summit, sounds nice, too bad the mid east is in as much turmoil as it was before Jimmy Carter was there.
North Korea, yea all that diplomacy sure did a lot.. North Koreans dropped their Nuclear Arms program on the spot.. Oops.. I guess they didn't.
And did you read my posts?? His humanitarian policies sure are a bit different than what they were when he was actually IN office....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 11:57 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by gene90, posted 12-17-2002 1:09 PM RedVento has not replied
 Message 19 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 1:47 PM RedVento has replied

RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 77 (26999)
12-17-2002 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Minnemooseus
12-17-2002 12:11 PM


You mean with things like SDI and Star Wars?? Things that now are shown to work, and in light of recent events with North Korean which DOES have nuclear arms despite promising the great Carter they didn't, and Iraq being on the verge of having them, I am glad for Reagans initiative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-17-2002 12:11 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 77 (27001)
12-17-2002 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by nator
12-17-2002 11:34 AM


quote:
Ronald Reagan did his best to widen the gap between rich and poor people in our country.
He gave huge tax cuts to the richest Americans while increasing the burden for the average person.
He balooned the national debt to untold size with his economic policies. The debt increased by approximately 450% between when Reagan took office and when George Bush left office. We are still feeling the effects of that today.
Read this for a basic explination as to why tax cuts work :
http://www.ncpa.org/pd/economy/pdeco/aug97g.html
I am not sure what you do for a living, but many here are scientists who work for Universities. They work because of grants, grants given by the government, and by the private sector. Private sector grants made possible by increased revenue from tax cuts.
Now lets look at the democratic way.. Raise taxes. That lowers revenues, which in turn causes lay offs.. That does nothing to help the economy long turn.
And while we are bitching about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Please let me know what percentage of US citizens are below the poverty line, and then compare that to the world average. Plus 90% of all tax revenue is paid by 5% of the US population that I assume is ok? Would a flat tax be better? Or maybe big business should pay much higher taxes to subsidize everyone, I doubt that would work since those highly taxed companies would just leave or fire everyone to maximize its now meager profits. Or maybe we should just ignore these facts all together since its much noblier to protect the poor and blame the rich.
quote:
He actively opposed labor unions and supported big business.
As someone who was just threatened by a Union in NYC (MTU threatened to strike) and who has a friend who makes 80k a year working for a union(working MAYBE 20 hours a week) I feel no sympathy for unions what so ever.
quote:
He didn't do squat to help the poor or disadvantaged. Programs that helped poor people, like housing subsidies and school lunch programs were cut disproportionally to others like Social Security.
Why is it the governments job to pay for the poor? When did that start? What ever happened to paying your own way? The Federal Governments job is to protect its citizens. State Governments are free to pay for as much of the poor as they like, I know NYC has been paying for the poor for so long that we are now facing a deficit larger than any STATE, let alone any other city.
You will find no sympathy for the underprivelaged from me. I came from a poor family, worked my ass off in school, got an education and got a job. My mother worked her ass off to give my sister and myself the opportunity to be better off than she is. We never felt the need to take handouts from the government, and while I know there are situations that require it, that is no excuse for doing nothing to better your situation.
And while we are looking back at Reagans policies with 20/20 hindsight lets look at Carter's acomplishment with the same rose colored glasses.. Hmm his administration fully supported Iran, his administration wanted to pay zero dollars as restitution to Viatnam, his adiminstration supported numerous governments that had less than stellar track records.. Not even speaking of his failed Peace Summit, and failed North Korean talks. So while its convinient to apply one set of standards to Reagan be sure I will apply those same standards to your hero Carter. And remeber I never said Reagan was the best president of the century but you claimed he was the worse.
[This message has been edited by RedVento, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 11:34 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 2:08 PM RedVento has replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3844 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 16 of 77 (27008)
12-17-2002 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by nator
12-17-2002 8:40 AM


No, I have a great dislike for Limbaugh. And by the way, I'm not the biggest Reagan fan either. But I find a reference to the "great" Jimmy Carter loaded to the brim with ironic humor. He left employees of the US government to rot and gave away the Panama Canal to boot.
He may be a good diplomat but he made a lousy president. The only interesting thing he did in office was talk about his "UFO experience".

This message is a reply to:
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