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Author Topic:   Kids, Politics and Religion.
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 1 of 29 (352041)
09-25-2006 8:24 AM


I was talking to my loverly girl friend the other night about raising kids *sound of my footsteps rappidly decreasng in the distance* and what values to instill in them.
After some time we got on to politics. We both concluded that it would be unfair to try to have our kids *footseps.....* to have our politics.
Do you think it is fare to bring kids up to follow the same politics as their parents?
Another question we immediatly saw was whether it is fare to raise a kid in the parents religion.
Two questions, both very similar.
Any takers?
Coffee House please.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 09-25-2006 9:17 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 4 by ramoss, posted 09-25-2006 9:18 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 5 by Quetzal, posted 09-25-2006 9:47 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 6 by Dr Jack, posted 09-25-2006 9:56 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 7 by Jazzns, posted 09-25-2006 11:27 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 8 by Chiroptera, posted 09-25-2006 11:46 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 9 by Silent H, posted 09-25-2006 12:35 PM Larni has not replied
 Message 13 by iano, posted 09-26-2006 7:33 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 15 by Brian, posted 09-26-2006 11:35 AM Larni has replied
 Message 17 by dwise1, posted 09-26-2006 11:42 AM Larni has replied

  
AdminQuetzal
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Message 2 of 29 (352049)
09-25-2006 9:07 AM


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    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 6408
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 5.1


    Message 3 of 29 (352050)
    09-25-2006 9:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
    09-25-2006 8:24 AM


    Do you think it is fare to bring kids up to follow the same politics as their parents?
    In the USA, a polltax has been ruled unconstitutional But then it wouldn't be fair, either.
    When you raise children, they are likely to share many of your core values. This will happen, even if you avoid any discussion of politics or religion.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Larni, posted 09-25-2006 8:24 AM Larni has not replied

      
    ramoss
    Member (Idle past 612 days)
    Posts: 3228
    Joined: 08-11-2004


    Message 4 of 29 (352052)
    09-25-2006 9:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
    09-25-2006 8:24 AM


    It all depends on HOW it is done. For example, the "Jesus Camp" people go about that very same issue in a way I find wrong.
    The way I look at it, kids tend to pick up the attitudes of their parents. Sometimes they rebel against the attitudes of their parents.
    Sure, go ahead and teach your children all about your politics and your religious beliefs. However, what is even more important is to teach your children to learn, and to think for themselves. Treat kids like little robots, and you have a child that can not think for themselves, and are vulnerable to those who would prey upon their beliefs.
    If you teach your children what you believe, why you believe it, and expose them to being able to think for themselves, yes, you risk having your children not follow your religion or your politics, but they will be more self sufficent in the long run. I think that is the
    better trade off.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Larni, posted 09-25-2006 8:24 AM Larni has not replied

      
    Quetzal
    Member (Idle past 5872 days)
    Posts: 3228
    Joined: 01-09-2002


    Message 5 of 29 (352055)
    09-25-2006 9:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
    09-25-2006 8:24 AM


    I think ramoss hit the nail square on the head. My family is dual philosophy, dual politics (although my wife and I see eye to eye on more things in both than our respective viewpoints would seem to indicate). My wife is a practicing Catholic, I'm atheist. My wife is a died-in-the-wool long-term Democrat, and I have been (until recently) a Republican since age 16. When the inevitable "Daddy, why don't you believe...", or "Mommy, why do you think..." questions come up, we both try and provide a reasonable rationale for our respective viewpoints (when they differ). We almost invariably end with a "That's what I think. You need to make up your own mind on the subject". This approach seems to be working pretty well.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Larni, posted 09-25-2006 8:24 AM Larni has not replied

      
    Dr Jack
    Member
    Posts: 3514
    From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
    Joined: 07-14-2003
    Member Rating: 8.7


    Message 6 of 29 (352056)
    09-25-2006 9:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
    09-25-2006 8:24 AM


    Hell yeah, in the unlikely event I have children I shall do my best to indoctrinate important political points into them:
    All races should be treated equally.
    Discrimination on grounds of sex is wrong.
    Murder is wrong.
    Rape is wrong.
    Stealing is wrong.
    You should try and treat other people in a manner you would like to be treated yourself.
    Slavery is wrong.
    etc. etc.
    The issue is not whether you should try and teach children values, it is how far that should go.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Larni, posted 09-25-2006 8:24 AM Larni has not replied

      
    Jazzns
    Member (Idle past 3912 days)
    Posts: 2657
    From: A Better America
    Joined: 07-23-2004


    Message 7 of 29 (352078)
    09-25-2006 11:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
    09-25-2006 8:24 AM


    In the sense that I am going to teach my son that neo-conservatism is wrong and also that authoritarianism is wrong I suppose I will be bringing up my child with my political philosophy since the alternatives to those leaves little room for anything else but being a slightly liberal moderate democrat.
    The parties could change though. I think if the republicans clean house of the crazies and realize that some social organization of society's functions is a good thing that they could be the better party.
    As long as the republicans accept and entertain the desires of fundamentalism then I will strongly teach my children that the republicans as a party are evil. The caveat will be though that they are not evil because they are republicans though but rather the people they choose to associate with and the ideas they choose to espouse.
    In the end, I hope to teach my son that it is not the label that matters but rather what you do and teach. In the future, the evil party MAY actually be the democrats. In certain ways it also is evil today but simply MUCH less evil than the republicans. This of course is based on what I consider evil so my opinion is entirely subjective.

    Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

    This message is a reply to:
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    Chiroptera
    Inactive Member


    Message 8 of 29 (352085)
    09-25-2006 11:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
    09-25-2006 8:24 AM


    With apologies to David Letterman.
    I'm going to leave my son in the woods. If he survives, he will have earned the right to develop his own values.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Larni, posted 09-25-2006 8:24 AM Larni has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by riVeRraT, posted 09-26-2006 6:54 AM Chiroptera has not replied

      
    Silent H
    Member (Idle past 5820 days)
    Posts: 7405
    From: satellite of love
    Joined: 12-11-2002


    Message 9 of 29 (352093)
    09-25-2006 12:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
    09-25-2006 8:24 AM


    First, I'd be interested in knowing how/why trying to raise one's children with similar politics and religion would be unfair? To whom?
    Second, I'll play nice and answer you question.
    If you believe your political and/or religious positions are well grounded and so lead to a better life in general it is unfair NOT to share that with your children. Its almost like wondering if its fair to teach your kids how to hunt and build fires if you live out in the woods. Sure they might pick it up, but if you have a skill (a form of knowledge) which provides an advantage then your better off getting that across to them early, so they can pick up more things to add to that knowledge base.
    Essentially children are an extension of your own life and it only makes sense to pass on the results of your learning. Of course hardcore indoctrination and hoping you can stick them in a tight box forever would be unrealistic. Not sure if I'd say "unfair", but its a waste of time and leads to much suffering on both sides.
    One thing I should probably add is that I believe child rearing without including politics/religion is self-defeating. Not only does it rob them of the benefits of one's own experiences, which means they have to reinvent the wheel, it assumes that they are somehow just going to learn about this stuff on their own and come up with an individual view point. I mean I assume the concept of "unfair" is coming from an idea that parents will smother a child's freedom to learn for themselves and develop their individuality.
    It seems to me that in not teaching them your own political and religious views, you simply empower a lot of other people whose main interest is to teach your children what their political and religious outlook should be.
    Edited by holmes, : typo

    holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
    "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Larni, posted 09-25-2006 8:24 AM Larni has not replied

    Replies to this message:
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    alonsofries
    Inactive Member


    Message 10 of 29 (352298)
    09-26-2006 4:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Silent H
    09-25-2006 12:35 PM


    of course it does
    what is the point of bringing people to the world, whose points of view are opposing yours? you just gonna damage your causes for this world..

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Silent H, posted 09-25-2006 12:35 PM Silent H has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    riVeRraT
    Member (Idle past 416 days)
    Posts: 5788
    From: NY USA
    Joined: 05-09-2004


    Message 11 of 29 (352316)
    09-26-2006 6:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 8 by Chiroptera
    09-25-2006 11:46 AM


    Re: With apologies to David Letterman.
    I'm going to leave my son in the woods. If he survives, he will have earned the right to develop his own values.
    That was too funny
    You can't force your kids to believe anything. They are their own individuals, and will have their own opinions no matter what. You will steer your kids one way or another, by your actions, not your words. You can force them away, or keep them close.
    I try to teach my kids what I believe, and why. They are free to make their own choices.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by Chiroptera, posted 09-25-2006 11:46 AM Chiroptera has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 09-26-2006 7:22 AM riVeRraT has not replied
     Message 16 by Larni, posted 09-26-2006 11:38 AM riVeRraT has replied

      
    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3457 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 12 of 29 (352321)
    09-26-2006 7:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 11 by riVeRraT
    09-26-2006 6:54 AM


    Do Your Best
    quote:
    You can't force your kids to believe anything. They are their own individuals, and will have their own opinions no matter what. You will steer your kids one way or another, by your actions, not your words. You can force them away, or keep them close.
    Exactly.
    I taught my daughter my values and explained them, but I didn't condemn her for having different opinions in her late teen years and early adulthood. Now that she is working and a mother she is starting to see why I have the values I have and sounds more like her mother everyday.
    I went through the same cycle with my parents. As an adult I found I didn't always agree with my father's opinion, but he didn't disown me or belittle me for disagreeing.
    My daughter has friends in their early 20's whose parents have a strangle hold on them. Laying guilt trips on them for behaving differently or having a different opinion than their parents.
    She appreciates me now.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by riVeRraT, posted 09-26-2006 6:54 AM riVeRraT has not replied

      
    iano
    Member (Idle past 1941 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 13 of 29 (352322)
    09-26-2006 7:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
    09-25-2006 8:24 AM


    Parents are better described as guardians. Children are people in their own right and to force a view (any view) on them is to violate them as individuals.
    By all means expose a child to that which you think best and protect them from that which you think harmful - what else can you do?
    As far as Christianity goes, yes give a child a firm grounding. Try to ensure they understand what it is and what it isn't. But to brainwash them is to do them a disservice. You cannot convert them for God has no grandchildren. But solid groundings give them something they may return to when it is their time to address and evaluate the issue.
    They might need to see the other side before they can truly begin to appreciate Christianity. God willing they might not.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Larni, posted 09-25-2006 8:24 AM Larni has not replied

      
    Silent H
    Member (Idle past 5820 days)
    Posts: 7405
    From: satellite of love
    Joined: 12-11-2002


    Message 14 of 29 (352363)
    09-26-2006 11:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 10 by alonsofries
    09-26-2006 4:56 AM


    of course it does
    what is the point of bringing people to the world, whose points of view are opposing yours? you just gonna damage your causes for this world..
    I honestly do not understand what you meant by the above. Could you please make it clearer? Thanks.

    holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
    "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by alonsofries, posted 09-26-2006 4:56 AM alonsofries has replied

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    Brian
    Member (Idle past 4959 days)
    Posts: 4659
    From: Scotland
    Joined: 10-22-2002


    Message 15 of 29 (352367)
    09-26-2006 11:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
    09-25-2006 8:24 AM


    I think it would depend on what you are teaching them.
    Anyone teaching their kids that 2 + 2 = 5, which is the equivalent of teaching a 6000 year universe or a literal Flood, should have their kids taken into care.
    If they said they 'believe' the universe is 6000 years old that would be fine, but when they brainwash kids then the gove has to step in.
    Brian.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Larni, posted 09-25-2006 8:24 AM Larni has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 18 by Larni, posted 09-26-2006 11:43 AM Brian has replied

      
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