Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Shakespeare Oxfordians - the Academic Creationists?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 1 of 23 (64761)
11-06-2003 2:24 PM


I'm doing some research for a novel I'm writing in my free time - actually, in my work time - and I'm finding out a lot about the Shakespeare authorship controversy. Of particular interest are the proponents of the position that the "true" author of the works attributed to Shakespeare is the 17th Earl of Oxford, Edward de Vere.
The problem is that there's significant holes in the theory, not the least of which is that about half of Shakspeare's plays came out after Edward de Vere died. Nonetheless Oxfordians persist in trying to discredit the Bard of Avon. I find that many of the techniques they employ are reminiscent of creationists, which I guess is the point of my post.
I'll try and post some examples, if anyone's really interested. I was just thinkin' about it, is all.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-06-2003 2:33 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 4 by MrHambre, posted 11-06-2003 3:29 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 23 (64765)
11-06-2003 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
11-06-2003 2:24 PM


My favorite Shakespeare conspiracy is that Marlowe faked his death, and kept writing under the name Shakespeare.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 2:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 2:36 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 23 (64766)
11-06-2003 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Dan Carroll
11-06-2003 2:33 PM


My favorite Shakespeare conspiracy is that Marlowe faked his death, and kept writing under the name Shakespeare.
That is an interesting idea. Totally bogus, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-06-2003 2:33 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Chavalon, posted 11-06-2003 3:53 PM crashfrog has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 4 of 23 (64779)
11-06-2003 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
11-06-2003 2:24 PM


I don't know much about the controversy myself, but I always thought the bone of contention was Shakespeare's education (or lack thereof). It's assumed today that Shakespeare must have been a high-born university man, because a commoner would have been too thick to write such complex, poetic works. Since there's no record of Shakespeare attending college, the conspiracy theories started. Am I close?
Incidentally, I took a trip to Stratford-upon-Avon this past spring on my pub crawl, I mean vacation. Lovely place.
------------------
The bear thought his son could talk in space about the time matter has to rotate but twisted heaven instead.
-Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 2:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 3:35 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 5 of 23 (64781)
11-06-2003 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by MrHambre
11-06-2003 3:29 PM


I don't know much about the controversy myself, but I always thought the bone of contention was Shakespeare's education (or lack thereof). It's assumed today that Shakespeare must have been a high-born university man, because a commoner would have been too thick to write such complex, poetic works.
Yeah, that's essentially it. Acedemic elitism, basically. Prostratfordians counter with the fact that an Elizebethan "grammar school" education was like a modern liberal arts degree in the classics, practically. Plus Shakespeare was apparently close friends with bookseller Richard Field, who would have doubtless provided ample opportunity to view a vast variety of books.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by MrHambre, posted 11-06-2003 3:29 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
Chavalon
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 23 (64782)
11-06-2003 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
11-06-2003 2:36 PM


Crash, my dad is convinced by the Marlowe thing. It seems more or less plausible to me. What are the counter-arguments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 2:36 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 4:53 PM Chavalon has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 23 (64786)
11-06-2003 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Chavalon
11-06-2003 3:53 PM


Crash, my dad is convinced by the Marlowe thing. It seems more or less plausible to me. What are the counter-arguments?
The only reason that Marlowe, who was the celebrated toast of the Southwark theatre community and easily a celebrity in his day, would have faked his death would have been because he feared the charges of atheism that had been brought against him by the Star Chamber.
But there's no reason he should have been. In addition to being a noted playwright he was an anti-Catholic agent provocateur in service to Queen Elizabeth, and enjoyed the protections of a number of major figures of her Privy Council.
It'd be like Karl Rove fearing a parking ticket. He works for the President. That has advantages.
Marlowe was a recognized actor and playright. Will Shakespeare was also a noted actor at the time, in a very popular theatre group. There's no way that Marlowe could have been Shakespeare in disguise, because he would have been recognized onstage by everybody. It'd be like Harrison Ford trying to disguise himself by pretending to be Ethan Hawke. Nobody would have been fooled for a minute.
Anyway it's not like the body disappeared, or something. Kit Marlowe died of being stabbed in the eye. That's something that's hard to fake, especially when the Queen's own coroner is looking into your death.
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 11-06-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Chavalon, posted 11-06-2003 3:53 PM Chavalon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-06-2003 5:01 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 9 by Chavalon, posted 11-06-2003 5:15 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 23 (64788)
11-06-2003 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
11-06-2003 4:53 PM


quote:
The only reason that Marlowe, who was the celebrated toast of the Southwark theatre community and easily a celebrity in his day, would have faked his death would have been because he feared the charges of atheism that had been brought against him by the Star Chamber.
Marlowe was also, from what I understand, heavy in gambling debts. (Althought that's from conversation I've had with people on the subject, not an actual source. So it may be unreliable.)
quote:
Marlowe was a recognized actor and playright. Will Shakespeare was also a noted actor at the time, in a very popular theatre group. There's no way that Marlowe could have been Shakespeare in disguise, because he would have been recognized onstage by everybody. It'd be like Harrison Ford trying to disguise himself by pretending to be Ethan Hawke. Nobody would have been fooled for a minute.
However, you're working under the assumption that the appearances of Marlowe and Shakespeare would have been common knowledge. Let's not forget that there was no TV, movies, or even photography back then.
A person could be a celebrity without a lot of people knowing what he looked like.
quote:
Anyway it's not like the body disappeared, or something. Kit Marlowe died of being stabbed in the eye. That's something that's hard to fake, especially when the Queen's own coroner is looking into your death.
Unless the Queen's in on it.
It wouldn't actually be that difficult. Find some poor sap who got killed in a bar fight, start spreading the rumor that Kit Marlowe is dead, lay low. Information travelled pretty slowly in those days, and if his appearance isn't common knowledge, all people are gonna know is that Marlowe sure hasn't written anything for a while...
Mind you I don't think it's true. I just think it's fun.
[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-06-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 4:53 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 5:15 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Chavalon
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 23 (64789)
11-06-2003 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
11-06-2003 4:53 PM


You don't appreciate the depth of the conspiracy theory here. All the people in the pub where he died were also government agents. Marlowe may have found it useful to be considered dead. And Shakespeare the actor may have agreed to front for him as author. According to one theory, Marlowe spent most of the rest of his life in Italy, where so many Shakespeare plays are set...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 4:53 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 5:26 PM Chavalon has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 23 (64790)
11-06-2003 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dan Carroll
11-06-2003 5:01 PM


However, you're working under the assumption that the appearances of Marlowe and Shakespeare would have been common knowledge. Let's not forget that there was no TV, movies, or even photography back then.
Yes, but it's not like they're saying Marlowe moved to France or something. If he became Will, he was acting in the same theatres in front of the same people, including almost all of the people who were trying to run him up on atheism charges.
Unless the Queen's in on it.
If the Queen's in on it, you don't have to fake anything.
Information travelled pretty slowly in those days, and if his appearance isn't common knowledge, all people are gonna know is that Marlowe sure hasn't written anything for a while...
Again, Marlowe was a pretty notorious character, and as a public figure it's reasonable to assume that his face would have been known. And he was a central figure in a pretty pervasive ring of spies. News of his demise would have traveled pretty quickly to London, especially since Deptford wasn't exactly that far.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-06-2003 5:01 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-06-2003 5:21 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 17 by Rrhain, posted 11-07-2003 8:06 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 23 (64793)
11-06-2003 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
11-06-2003 5:15 PM


quote:
Yes, but it's not like they're saying Marlowe moved to France or something. If he became Will, he was acting in the same theatres in front of the same people, including almost all of the people who were trying to run him up on atheism charges.
Who said he was acting for him? Just writing.
The only reason I enjoy the conspiracy is that it's undeniable that Shakespeare's writing suddenly got a WHOLE LOT better right around the time Marlowe died, and he used a whole bunch of Marlowe's plots to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 5:15 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 5:30 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 23 (64795)
11-06-2003 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chavalon
11-06-2003 5:15 PM


All the people in the pub where he died were also government agents.
Not exactly government agents. More like personal spies of folks like Sir Thomas Walsingham. There wasn't really any unified, cohesive "government agency" that would have had all the spies working for the same end. The spies would have been against each other, not working as part of a big conspiracy.
Anyway, they may have been spies, but they were also ne'er-do-wells and con men, and it's likely they were at the lodging-house not to effect Marlowe's escape but to enlist his help to con a young lord out of some money.
And Shakespeare the actor may have agreed to front for him as author.
That just doesn't make any sense. Marlowe wrote plays under his own name before he died, and had his poems published, too. Shakespeare published Venus and Adonis and The Rape of Lucrece before Marlowe's death. Why would he publish under two names?
According to one theory, Marlowe spent most of the rest of his life in Italy, where so many Shakespeare plays are set...
If he wanted to live in Italy, why not just do so as Marlowe? He would have been well out of the reaches of the Star Chamber then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Chavalon, posted 11-06-2003 5:15 PM Chavalon has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 23 (64796)
11-06-2003 5:26 PM


(I also really like the story where Shakespeare bargains with the king of dreams for greater talent. )

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 14 of 23 (64797)
11-06-2003 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dan Carroll
11-06-2003 5:21 PM


The only reason I enjoy the conspiracy is that it's undeniable that Shakespeare's writing suddenly got a WHOLE LOT better right around the time Marlowe died, and he used a whole bunch of Marlowe's plots to do so.
But yet, his style remains Shakespeare. It's not like he suddenly turns into Marlowe. They have radically different styles. You're right, Shakspeare gets a lot better right when Marlowe dies, like he's following Marlowe's lead - because that's exactly what happens. Shakespeare has come to London and joined the Lord Chaimberlain's Men right around that time, so it's likely he was suddenly exposed to Marlowe's writing, if not the man himself.
But look how much goofiness we have to propose to make the Marlowe conspiracy work. Isn't it just easier to believe that the Swan of Avon wrote all those works they say he did? What's the reason to believe otherwise, aside from somebody's unwillingness to belive that the son of a glovemaker could write so well?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-06-2003 5:21 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-06-2003 6:05 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 23 (64801)
11-06-2003 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
11-06-2003 5:30 PM


None. There's also no reason to believe the major drug companies are sitting on the cures to all known diseases, but I like that one too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 5:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2003 6:11 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024