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Author Topic:   Devising the best taxation
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 70 (439550)
12-09-2007 2:09 AM


In the 2008 presidential election campaign, I have noticed that the issue of taxation has been a big topic.
There are many different models for taxation. Given the seeming failure of the IRS in the United States, and the allegations that such an agency is unconstitutional, a new form of taxation seems imminent.
But which one? What system or plan of taxation appeals to you most and why?
I will only list one proposition in the opening segment, only because there are so many and this one is really piquing my interest. Please feel free to add to it and to give reasons for why you support it.
The Fair Tax calls for the demise of the IRS, claiming that it is an ineffective and antiquated system.
What is interesting about this tax is that it claims non-partisanship. This appears to be the case since Dems and Reps alike are approving it. Sen Mike Gravel (D) and Gov. Mike Huckabee (R) are two big proponents of this plan.
The entailments of this proposition include empowering the citizen, rather than empowering the government. It promises to eliminate taxes on savings, dividends, personal and corporate income, and abolishes the Death Tax in favor of a consumption tax, where, essentially, the only real tax is drawn from one's purchases. In other words, from a sales tax.
Have a listen and tell me what you think.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : No reason given.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 2:23 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 11 by Chiroptera, posted 12-09-2007 2:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 20 by Silent H, posted 12-09-2007 4:54 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 2 of 70 (439552)
12-09-2007 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 2:09 AM


Given the seeming failure of the IRS in the United States, and the allegations that such an agency is unconstitutional
Wha-what? Failure? Unconstitutional?
It really is a different universe you guys inhabit over there, NJ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 2:09 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 1:11 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 70 (439557)
12-09-2007 3:15 AM


Perhaps the Conservies just need to stop wasting all the money, instead, eh?

Beware the Jabberwock, my son!

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 70 (439592)
12-09-2007 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by crashfrog
12-09-2007 2:23 AM


Fixing the system
quote:
Given the seeming failure of the IRS in the United States, and the allegations that such an agency is unconstitutional
Wha-what? Failure?
Any time a government taxes the hell out of you unnecessarily, makes it so that the people cannot pour money that should be going in to the economy. The US enjoyed a 5% taxation for years and years until in 1913(?) where it instituted an income tax.
We now have approximately a 40% compulsive tax which is higher or the equivalent to most socialist nations. Well, if we are going to pay for taxes that high, might as well get the perks that the socialists nations do, like healthcare.
But we don't. On top of paying these taxes, we still have to pay for our basic amenities. Most people struggle with even that in America. Any nation wants its middle class to dominate, otherwise we have a see-saw effect like we see in many South American nations where the people are either dirt poor, or filthy stinkin' rich. Something is broken with this system, and I believe it could be better for all of us by finding a new system.
Unconstitutional?
There is talk that there is no such income tax on the books. And under scrutiny, people have tried to locate such a law that legally forces anyone to pay the federal income tax. The IRS has evaded it repeatedly. It appears that no such law actually exists.
It really is a different universe you guys inhabit over there, NJ.
There is no you guys about this, Crash. This is a non-partisan issue. If you want less government intrusion, you would support a proposition eliminating the IRS.
Perhaps you are in favor of socialism and so you want to be taxed to death. But if so, you're still getting gypped because you're paying all those taxes with nothing to go along with it.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 2:23 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by subbie, posted 12-09-2007 1:29 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 6 by CK, posted 12-09-2007 1:35 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 12-09-2007 2:00 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 3:52 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 40 by SGT Snorkel, posted 12-09-2007 8:25 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 5 of 70 (439598)
12-09-2007 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 1:11 PM


Re: Fixing the system
Well, I wasted 6 minutes of my life and killed a few dozen brain cells watching the youtube link. The woman never said that there's no legal obligation to pay taxes or that the IRS has been evading anything.
As far as nobody being able to find a law that forces anyone to pay taxes, well, it took me about 5 minutes, and I've never studied tax law. It's really tough to find. It's the first section of the Internal Revenue Code.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 1:11 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 6 of 70 (439599)
12-09-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 1:11 PM


Re: Fixing the system
quote:
If you want less government intrusion, you would support a proposition eliminating the IRS.
Perhaps you are in favor of socialism and so you want to be taxed to death. But if so, you're still getting gypped because you're paying all those taxes with nothing to go along with it.
Eh? what does the collection mechanism have to do with the rate or the redistribution of the monies collected? I don't see the connection to "socialism" either.
quote:
There is talk that there is no such income tax on the books. And under scrutiny, people have tried to locate such a law that legally forces anyone to pay the federal income tax. The IRS has evaded it repeatedly. It appears that no such law actually exists.
a quick google takes me to:
quote:
Many tax protestors claim that they have sent the IRS letters or petitions demanding to be shown the laws that require them to pay taxes. They say that they've asked the IRS what law requires people to pay taxes and the IRS refuses to answer. Here's an example.
Actually, the IRS answers this question on its website.
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/...gel/Personal/taxes/IRSrefuses.htm
and here is the actual IRS site about the matter:
http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159932,00.html
Is this myth similar to the one about the federal reserve being run by the Jews and the one world order, do they come from similar sources?
Edited by CK, : Clarification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 1:11 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 7 of 70 (439602)
12-09-2007 1:56 PM


Tax myths debunked
There is a very detailed site about this subject here:
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#direct

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 8 of 70 (439604)
12-09-2007 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 1:11 PM


Re: Fixing the system
Nemesis_Juggernaut writes:
Any time a government taxes the hell out of you unnecessarily, makes it so that the people cannot pour money that should be going in to the economy.
So, where does all that tax money go, if not into the economy?

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 1:11 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2007 2:22 PM ringo has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 70 (439606)
12-09-2007 2:10 PM


If I Were President
If I were hypothetically President here would be my hypothetical tax plan hypothetically proposed to Congress:
1. Eliminate the Fed Reserve System.
2. Reinstate the creation of money to Congress.
3. Present a Constitutional Amendment to abolish all current taxes at all levels of government and outlaw deficite spending at all levels of government.
4. Depreciate the American $ via issuance of enough $ to pay off all government debt and simultaneously outlaw any future debt spending, period at all levels of government.
5. Impose a head tax at the lowest local level of government upon all able citizens over age 20.
6. Only citizens who were unable to pay the head tax would file a return requesting exemption from the tax.
6. Reduce the IRS to what sould be needful to process head tax exemption requests.
The way the head tax would work:
1. All citizens pay a given amount to the lowest level of government, such as village, township, county, etc.
2. The lowest level keeps a given percentage (to be established uniformly over the nation) and forwards the remainder to the next level up and so on until a percentage of all taxes eventually reach the federal level.
I believe this was somewhat how governments were financed in ancient times under kings, though I'm not sure it's all that simple.
Can you imagine the booming business this system would generate with the incentive to build and improve etc? Can you imagine how much would be saved via elimination of buracracy and the elimation of the national debt etc? Yes it would appear to devastate the $ but in the long haul strengthen it to a stable and sound level.
I've said the above to say it will never happen and is likely unrealistic. However it underscores some of the problems in the tax system which work to the disadvantage of us all.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 12-09-2007 2:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied
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 Message 28 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 6:17 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 70 (439607)
12-09-2007 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
12-09-2007 2:10 PM


Re: If I Were President
4. Depreciate the American $ via issuance of enough $ to pay off all government debt and simultaneously outlaw any future debt spending, period at all levels of government.
Who exactly do you think would accept such phuny money as payment of any debt?
Can you imagine the booming business this system would generate with the incentive to build and improve etc?
No.
Can you imagine how much would be saved via elimination of buracracy and the elimation of the national debt etc?
No.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2007 2:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 70 (439608)
12-09-2007 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 2:09 AM


What system or plan of taxation appeals to you most and why?
A progressive income tax with no exemptions or deductions, because it would be the most fair. People with a large income would pay more taxes, people with small incomes would pay a smaller proportion of their income as taxes, and people in the smallest bracket would pay no taxes.
By eliminating exemptions and deductions, taxes would be extremely simple. The reason that our tax code is so complicated is because people have to try to figure out which exemptions and deductions apply to them, and how much the various exemptions would be.

If it's truly good and powerful, it deserves to engender a thousand misunderstandings. -- Ben Ratcliffe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 2:09 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 70 (439609)
12-09-2007 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
12-09-2007 2:00 PM


Re: Fixing the system
Ringo writes:
So, where does all that tax money go, if not into the economy?
In my upstate NY county the lion's share of it goes into expanding the government and salaries of the fatcats who have expanded their buracracy tenfold over the last fifty years while the oppressed worker population has remained static with zero population growth.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 12-09-2007 2:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 12-09-2007 2:26 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 13 of 70 (439610)
12-09-2007 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Buzsaw
12-09-2007 2:22 PM


Re: Fixing the system
Buzsaw writes:
In my upstate NY county the lion's share of it goes into expanding the government and salaries of the fatcats who have expanded their buracracy tenfold over the last fifty years while the oppressed worker population has remained static with zero population growth.
And what do the fatcats do with the money?

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2007 2:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by subbie, posted 12-09-2007 2:33 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 15 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2007 2:41 PM ringo has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 14 of 70 (439611)
12-09-2007 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
12-09-2007 2:26 PM


Re: Fixing the system
Ringo writes:
And what do the fatcats do with the money?
Why they use it to light their cigars. Haven't you ever watched cartoons?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 12-09-2007 2:26 PM ringo has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 70 (439614)
12-09-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
12-09-2007 2:26 PM


Re: Fixing the system
They invest it in stocks, bonds, IRAs etc and retire with ever expansive benefits wintering in Florida, Hawaii, the Bahamas, on cruises or abroad and squandering it in the casinos doling it out to other well to doer fat cats who couldn't care less about my county's wrecked economy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 12-09-2007 2:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 12-09-2007 2:55 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
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