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Author Topic:   Heaven
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 98 (97640)
04-04-2004 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Sarde
04-03-2004 6:48 AM


Re: Let the dead bury their dead
Sarde,
I want to tell you that I have a satisfactory understanding of the questions you raise, without being sure that I can explain what I understand in this forum. By satisfactory understanding, I mean that I can obey the commandments that Yeshua gave us to keep, regarding our natural families, without a sense of betraying my hope for good for those that I was loving as best I could, before receiving those commandments.
I also have an inkling of the how it could be that "God is love." and "I bring a sword, to divide families." could both be true.
It's late here, so I will say no more until I am fresher. But keep on wondering about the idea of God giving us commandments and directions, to guide us in the midst of spiritual warfare. Of an evil spiritual person working to destroy our lives and that of our families. "He prepares a table before me in the presence of mine enemies."
He wants all men and women saved, and brought to a knowledge of the truth. To serve Him in accomplishing this task is subtle.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Sarde, posted 04-03-2004 6:48 AM Sarde has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 98 (97646)
04-04-2004 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by teen15m6
04-03-2004 11:12 PM


quote:
And Muslims are wrong because they believe that thier savior is Muhammad, he didnt die for them, he didnt live a sin free life, they also believe that Jesus was a mere prophet, wich he wasnt.
Muhammad is not Muslims' saviour. He, like Jesus, was only a Messenger of God. Yes he sinned, but he was a man like us, but he prayed for forgiveness. We are our own saviour. I see that you understand that faith needs works, that's what Islam's all about, we don't burden anyone with our sins because everybody is responsible for their own doing.
Seeing the confusion that took place in the previous page about which is the One True Bible (tm), I could not help but laugh. Were Christians more careful in keeping your own holy book from distortions and later additions, God might not need send another
scripture. Muslims of every stripe are spared from this confusion because we agree that there is only one version of the original Qur'an text in Arabic.
And who is Jesus if not just a messenger? God? You should know that this had not been decided as official dogma until some 150--200 years after Jesus' demise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by teen15m6, posted 04-03-2004 11:12 PM teen15m6 has not replied

  
DC85
Member
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 78 of 98 (97687)
04-04-2004 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by teen15m6
04-03-2004 11:12 PM


Would you please show me where the King James Bible contradicts itself?
We talk about these alot here.... have a look around old topics

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Trixie
Member (Idle past 3726 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 79 of 98 (97700)
04-04-2004 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by teen15m6
04-02-2004 9:15 PM


What's wrong with Catholics?
Teen, you seem to want to really have a go at Catholics. Care to share? Have you read The Jerusalem Bible? Do you know how it differs from the KJV? Can you point to specific, deliberate errors in it due to the translator being a paedophile? Oh and before you reply, consider that it's a Roman Catholic you're replying to!
Why oh why oh why do some people think that ONLY their particular sect of Christianity will be saved? As far as I'm concerned EVERY person who believes that Christ died for their sins will be saved, even if they believe that they have to pray standing with their left foot in a bucket of cold porridge.
I have to say that I'm of the opinion that the KJV is one of the worst because James interfered with the translation process in order to get as much as possible in about persecuting witches - he was pathologically afraid of witchcraft. As for the 50-odd translators, well that doesn't really mean anything. You know what they say - a camel is a racehorse designed by committee.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by teen15m6, posted 04-02-2004 9:15 PM teen15m6 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Angeldust, posted 04-05-2004 2:41 PM Trixie has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 98 (97857)
04-05-2004 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Sarde
04-03-2004 6:48 AM


Re: Let the dead bury their dead
Sarde,
I have a bit more time and energy, to perhaps give a useful response to your questions.
Does that mean all Christians should eventually cut all ties with their family members who are not Christians?
No. Disciples of Yeshua, considering the cost of discipleship, will let the word of God divide them from family members who choose not to become disciples, and will choose to "hate" (as God, not man, defines that word) those family members. They will do this remembering Yeshua's own example, where His mather and brothers, thinking that He was out of His mind, came to "rescue" Him and take Him home. He said that He regarded His disciples as His mother and brothers, meaning that His natural family had to repent of their view of Him, and become His disciples, before He would regard them as family. This they did, and, from the cross, and after the resurrection, He affirmed their family status with Him.
Disciples may also remember Peter's example, where he brought Yeshua home. Yeshua healed Peter's mother, who took care of them. But, we have no further sign that she became a disciple, or received any more salvation.
The point to disciples is that diligent obedience to our Lord's commands gives everyone we know their best chance at salvation from evil in this world, and in the world to come. When God is assured that our natural families pose no threat whatsoever to our love for and obedience to Him, His jealousy is appeased and He will save them so that we may enjoy them further.
Can we not love people who are not Christians?
Yes, we can. We are in fact commanded to love our neighbors, whatever their spiritual position. Remembering, of course, that "this is love, that we keep His commandments." Again, man's definition of love is often God's definition of hate, or worse. The tender mercies of the wicked are cruel, says God. And, it is better to meet a she-bear robbed of her cubs, than a fool in their folly. Men have thought that "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions." The paradox of "hating" someone in order to "love" them properly clearly exists in the spiritual world. That's why He asserts that "wisdom is the principle thing."
I dearly love my family members and even if they believe differently, I don't think they are godless or 'dead in their sins'. I live close to my family members and regularly visit them. Should I move to the other side of the country and say I want nothing to do with them anymore because I am now a follower of Christ and they are not?
No. You should go into your prayer closet, and ask God to speak to you about each and every one that you dearly love. Ask Him how you yourself are doing, and what you can do to further please Him, and keep His commandments. Then ask Him to give more life to those you love, starting with foundational matters such as the will to live, and the choice or love of truth about how to live. And, of course, to have a heart that loves Him, and is drawn to His Son, Yeshua. If He tells you to move, not away from them, but to a place of unity and love with other believers, obey in faith and assurance that such a move will greatly increase hope for those in your family that you love, who may be spiritually troubled. See yourself as going for help, not abandoning those you love.
The church I go to has as one of their goals to have people 'engage in meaningful relationships with unbelievers' in order to try and bring them closer to God.
Satan has the goal of entangling you in meaningful relationships with unbelievers, so that you are crippled in God's service. He also wants you to settle for "going to church," instead of "being the church." In the latter case, you will strengthen the church in its tearing down the gates of Hell. In the former, you will remain separate from the church in some foundational sense, and his (Satan's) for eternity. Don't go to church. Go to your prayer closet. Then the church will come to you.
Jesus says He comes to divide families. Could He be talking about people severing their ties with their families because their family members are expressly anti-Christian? Or could He be talking about the fact that people will go to Heaven with Him and leave their family members behind because they are 'dead in their sins'?
He is very clear that disciples leave their families here on earth, as a part of discipleship. Remember too that "dead in their sins" means dead as God defines the word, mainly separated from Him spiritually. Family members who do not hear God calling them, are not conscious of His presence in their life, are dead in their sins. They can be revived, or quickened spiritually, but it takes prayer, the power of which is increased by numbers praying, by fervency, and by the faithfulness of those praying. That's why "going for help" is the way to see helping those you love who are deaf and blind, dead, spiritually.
I mean, I could actually have a chance at bringing my loved ones closer to God. If I leave them, I can be sure that this will never happen. In fact, if I leave them, they will think that this Christianity is a really awful religion to make people abandon those they love...
This is what Satan would like you to think, what he has worked your whole life, as best he could, to convince you is true. So God tells us not to lean on our own understanding, but to trust Him with our whole heart. Wisdom, Sarde! Go to your prayer closet, and pray for wisdom. "If any one lacks wisdom, let them ask of the Father, and He will give it abundantly, without reproach." Read again those first versus of James.
But, of course, Christianity is an awful religion. Flee from it, into the heart and arms and wisdom of Yeshua. He is alive, and has paid a great price for the love of you, that you and He might have heart to heart talks, and priceless walks. Make His joy complete, by going to Him, not church or Christianity. He takes no pleasure in fools, and hates hypocrisy, and wants you to stay away from places where such gather.
Try it! You'll see. You will, I'm am sure.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Sarde, posted 04-03-2004 6:48 AM Sarde has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Sarde, posted 04-05-2004 12:31 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
Sarde
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 98 (97868)
04-05-2004 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Stephen ben Yeshua
04-05-2004 11:57 AM


Let the dead bury their dead
The point to disciples is that diligent obedience to our Lord's commands gives everyone we know their best chance at salvation from evil in this world, and in the world to come. When God is assured that our natural families pose no threat whatsoever to our love for and obedience to Him, His jealousy is appeased and He will save them so that we may enjoy them further.
Well, to be honest, I am quite sure that my family members pose no threat to my growing relationship with God, as they are in no way opposed to it. And I don't like the idea of God being 'jealous', especially being jealous of people! What kind of almighty God would be jealous of people?
No. You should go into your prayer closet, and ask God to speak to you about each and every one that you dearly love. Ask Him how you yourself are doing, and what you can do to further please Him, and keep His commandments. Then ask Him to give more life to those you love, starting with foundational matters such as the will to live, and the choice or love of truth about how to live.
What do you mean by 'the will to live'? I haven't got any family members who are thinking of committing suicide... You're probably talking spiritual suicide. But I am not one of those who thinks that Jesus is the only way.
Satan has the goal of entangling you in meaningful relationships with unbelievers, so that you are crippled in God's service.
I do not believe this at all. I engage in meaningful relationships with others (be they believers or unbelievers) because I might learn something from them and they might learn something from me. You are basically telling me that the church I go to is lead by Satan? That is something I choose not to believe if you don't mind.
He also wants you to settle for "going to church," instead of "being the church."
I do not "settle for" going to church. I go to church because I feel that God is there and it gives me spiritual strength. But I do not limit my relationship with God to two hours every Sunday morning.
Don't go to church. Go to your prayer closet. Then the church will come to you.
I do both. Going to church helps me to affirm my faith. It seems to me like all churches are evil in your eyes...
This is what Satan would like you to think, what he has worked your whole life, as best he could, to convince you is true.
I'm sorry, but I really think this is nonsense.
Go to your prayer closet, and pray for wisdom. "If any one lacks wisdom, let them ask of the Father, and He will give it abundantly, without reproach."
I do pray for wisdom, just about every night.
But, of course, Christianity is an awful religion. Flee from it, into the heart and arms and wisdom of Yeshua. He is alive, and has paid a great price for the love of you, that you and He might have heart to heart talks, and priceless walks. Make His joy complete, by going to Him, not church or Christianity. He takes no pleasure in fools, and hates hypocrisy, and wants you to stay away from places where such gather.
Churches are not only evil in your eyes, they are also places where fools and hypocrites gather... That is just not true! Yes, every church has hypocrites and fools, but every church also has people who have a real relationship with God and they are the people I want to be with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 04-05-2004 11:57 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 98 (97910)
04-05-2004 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Trixie
04-04-2004 4:19 PM


Re: What's wrong with Catholics?
I have no issues with Catholics and am open to being wrong here, but I just have question.
Why oh why oh why do some people think that ONLY their particular sect of Christianity will be saved? As far as I'm concerned EVERY person who believes that Christ died for their sins will be saved
I completely and totally agree with you in this statement. Every denomination has it's issues and every denomination has those people within it that aren't really Christians. But there isn't a denomination that I would condemn as a whole.
This is a quote from Pope Boniface VIII in 1302:
"We firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sin." (Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, 30th Edition, # 468, p. 186)
This is a quote from the Dictatus Papae of Pope Gregory VII
That the Roman church has never erred; nor will it err to all eternity, the Scripture bearing witness.
If the Roman Catholic Church says that it has never erred, and also said that all who are outside of the Roman Catholic Church are condemned to hell, then how can a Roman Catholic say that believers in the other denominations are good with God?
Like I said before, I agree with your statements and am just trying to figure out where the Catholic Church offically stands on this. Is this just something that the church says and the people don't really believe? Or do many Catholics still believe this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Trixie, posted 04-04-2004 4:19 PM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by 1.61803, posted 04-05-2004 4:11 PM Angeldust has replied
 Message 84 by Trixie, posted 04-05-2004 4:46 PM Angeldust has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 83 of 98 (97937)
04-05-2004 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Angeldust
04-05-2004 2:41 PM


Re: What's wrong with Catholics?
Vatican II in 1962 changed all that Angel, read The church consitution section 5 and section 6.. The Holy Catholic Church has changed its ancient views on grace and who can receive it.
I tried to post a link to it but it did not work, just google search vatican II.
[This message has been edited by 1.61803, 04-05-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Trixie
Member (Idle past 3726 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 84 of 98 (97947)
04-05-2004 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Angeldust
04-05-2004 2:41 PM


Re: What's wrong with Catholics?
The Roman Catholic Chruch is much changed from the days when it condemned everyone who was not a Catholic. For example, when anyone wishes to join the Catholic church they must be baptised first. My baptism as a baby was within the Protestant Church of Scotland - this was fine and I didn't need re-baptised. There are ecumenical services all the time in my area where all the different churches, including the Catholic church get together for joint worship. Every now and again, someone will get up and walk out if they think that something said is too "papish" or too "orange", but they're just bigots. The area I come from has been blighted for years by sectarianism imported from Northern Ireland. It's not the Churches which have the problem with other faiths, it's some of their adherents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Angeldust, posted 04-05-2004 2:41 PM Angeldust has not replied

  
Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 98 (97957)
04-05-2004 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by 1.61803
04-05-2004 4:11 PM


Re: What's wrong with Catholics?
Thanks, both to you and Trixie. The search was very helpful. I had just finished teaching (I'm an Intern) a class on early church history and hadn't managed to get that far in my studies. The answers were greatly appreciated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by 1.61803, posted 04-05-2004 4:11 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6176 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 86 of 98 (98217)
04-06-2004 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by NosyNed
04-03-2004 3:05 AM


Re: King James was a Poon
Thanks,Ned. It looks like at least one person doesn't think I'm crazy. Besides, the flood was by all means a miracle. Whether it happened or not I don't care that much but I don't understand why people look for evidence. A miracle like that wouldn't leave any evidence because that'd be a lot of sediment (or whatever rock would coat the earth after a Great Flood) and we'd be screwed.

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by NosyNed, posted 04-03-2004 3:05 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
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One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6176 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 87 of 98 (98223)
04-06-2004 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by teen15m6
04-02-2004 9:39 PM


Re: King James was a Poon
"my preacher just preached a message on the small things, they matter."
A preacher said it?! Then it must be true, and every small detail is crucial!! Heh, sorry I'm being sarcastic.
In about 10 years I will, beyond any reasonable doubt, be preaching at the pulpit. I'm a preacher in training, hence being 'born to preach'.
You're arguing with me, meaning you disagree with my point. So how is you pastor any different than me? Just because s/he took a few university courses doesn't mean s/he knows everything. You can't get Holy Spirit from a text book.
Preachers are not perfect. We are human, and our words are imperfect. God delivers His Message through us but we screw it up all the time. Ever played telephone? From the first message to the tenth guy delivering the message there is always a slight change. We don't deliver the Message perfectly because we aren't built that way!
P.S. King James was still a Poon!

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by teen15m6, posted 04-02-2004 9:39 PM teen15m6 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by SRO2, posted 04-06-2004 9:01 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
SRO2 
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 98 (98233)
04-06-2004 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by One_Charred_Wing
04-06-2004 8:36 PM


Re: King James was a Poon
Well, if you have a brake job done on your car, and the mechanic screws it up, is he allowed to say..."I screwed up, you'll have to pay me to re-do it"...hardly...so because you want to be a preacher, you're already asking for clemency on mistakes you haven't even made yet?...are you SURE thats your calling?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-06-2004 8:36 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-07-2004 6:12 PM SRO2 has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4080 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 89 of 98 (98246)
04-06-2004 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by One_Charred_Wing
04-06-2004 8:25 PM


A miracle like that wouldn't leave any evidence because that'd be a lot of sediment (or whatever rock would coat the earth after a Great Flood) and we'd be screwed.
A miracle like that would leave evidence by leaving a lot of sediment, laid down in certain ways with fossils sorted randomly, rather than in the constant order they're sorted in now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-06-2004 8:25 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
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One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6176 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 90 of 98 (98499)
04-07-2004 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by truthlover
04-06-2004 9:56 PM


Hence the miracle
TO ADMINISTRATORS:
Sorry, the browser thingy said this message didn't go through, so I made the post again. Please delete this copy.
[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 04-07-2004]

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by truthlover, posted 04-06-2004 9:56 PM truthlover has not replied

  
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