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Author Topic:   How did it start?
Jackal25
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 162 (94196)
03-23-2004 5:50 PM


I am new first off so be nice.
If people believe in evolution then they must believe in how the first living creature was put on earth. What facts are there of how the first creature showed up on earth. I mean all I read on this forum is "where is the fact, where is the fact", so I am going to do it too. I personally believe God created everything and I am interested in how you believe that it all started.Im sure that this has been brought up, but it isnt the easiest thing to find where it is posted. If you know just let me know you dont have to respond.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Chiroptera, posted 03-23-2004 5:57 PM Jackal25 has replied
 Message 7 by :æ:, posted 03-23-2004 6:26 PM Jackal25 has not replied
 Message 29 by SkepticScand, posted 03-24-2004 7:27 PM Jackal25 has not replied
 Message 36 by laserlover, posted 04-30-2004 11:38 PM Jackal25 has not replied
 Message 50 by laserlover, posted 05-01-2004 7:48 PM Jackal25 has not replied
 Message 157 by nipok, posted 05-02-2005 11:33 PM Jackal25 has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 162 (94202)
03-23-2004 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jackal25
03-23-2004 5:50 PM


God created the first prokaryote cell ex nihilo three and a half billion years ago. That cell then reproduced and evolution is the process that explains the diversity that arose after that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jackal25, posted 03-23-2004 5:50 PM Jackal25 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Jackal25, posted 03-23-2004 6:07 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 4 by 1.61803, posted 03-23-2004 6:08 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 63 by d_yankee, posted 11-24-2004 10:41 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Jackal25
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 162 (94207)
03-23-2004 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Chiroptera
03-23-2004 5:57 PM


So you believe in God and evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Chiroptera, posted 03-23-2004 5:57 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-23-2004 6:20 PM Jackal25 has replied
 Message 6 by Chiroptera, posted 03-23-2004 6:23 PM Jackal25 has not replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 4 of 162 (94210)
03-23-2004 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Chiroptera
03-23-2004 5:57 PM


Concise Batman Do you happen to know if there is any supporting fossil evidence for this organism?

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 Message 2 by Chiroptera, posted 03-23-2004 5:57 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 162 (94214)
03-23-2004 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jackal25
03-23-2004 6:07 PM


Jackel, the vast majority of people who accept TOE on its merits, in the US and Europe, do believe in some form of god. Scientific principles are not guided by religious beliefs, but by evidence and successful models. It is important to note that less than 10% of western population is considered atheist ( in some areas, its far lower). Therefore, religious beliefs and and acceptance of scientific princples doesn't seem to be a problem, unless one's religious beliefs are based literally on the bible, at which point there is a conflict. The conflict arises because a literal interpretation of the bible conflicts with all areas of modern science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jackal25, posted 03-23-2004 6:07 PM Jackal25 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Jackal25, posted 03-23-2004 6:32 PM Darwin Storm has replied
 Message 64 by d_yankee, posted 11-24-2004 10:45 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 162 (94219)
03-23-2004 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jackal25
03-23-2004 6:07 PM


No, that was a joke. In regards to your opening statement:
quote:
If people believe in evolution then they must believe in how the first living creature was put on earth.
This is obviously true. Everyone believe that the first living creature came from some where. But there is a common logical fallacy that if scientists cannot prove purely naturalistic abiogenesis then evolution must be false. This is a fallacy because there is ample evidence in favor of common descent of all species through natural selection, regardless of how life did originally arise. If a creationist wants to dispute the theory of evolution, critiquing abiogenesis is barking up the wrong tree; the creationist must deal with the actual evidence that supports evolution of life after it arose, however it did arise.
Second, no one has the exact mechanism or pathway that life arose. But various aspects of it pose no conceptual problems. As in all science there are unanswered questions, but the major pieces are pretty much in place. It is mostly now a question of figuring out the various details of the proposed pathways, and deciding which pathway is the most plausible.
Sadly, early organic chemistry probably didn't fossilize, so even when scientists do come up with a working, detailed scenario, there will be no way to tell if that scenario is indeed the one that life did take.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jackal25, posted 03-23-2004 6:07 PM Jackal25 has not replied

:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7184 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 7 of 162 (94220)
03-23-2004 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jackal25
03-23-2004 5:50 PM


Jackal25 writes:
If people believe in evolution then they must believe in how the first living creature was put on earth.
Not true. Biological evolution is a process that operates on living organisms, but it matters not one whit how the first living organism got here -- if it even "got here" at all. That being the case, persons can believe in evolution and totally lack a belief with regard to how life began..
I personally believe God created everything and I am interested in how you believe that it all started.
I personally don't believe there to be any fundamental difference between "living" and "non-living" matter. Thus, there was simply a point where lumps of matter began a physical process that we as humans call "life." Much like the way water began the water cycle, other forms of matter began the cycle of life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jackal25, posted 03-23-2004 5:50 PM Jackal25 has not replied

Jackal25
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 162 (94224)
03-23-2004 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Darwin Storm
03-23-2004 6:20 PM


Thanks for your reply Darwin, I am just trying to learn as much as I can as I dont know much. I was just trying to understand how atheist believe that it all started. I guess since I have always just known in my heart that God was the creator its hard for me to comprehind that an atheist could believe something else. I mean I have no right to say they are wrong because like this forum brings up a lot, some people need cold hard facts to believe something or they wont, and who am I to say I have these facts. I just apreciate any help I can get in trying to understand where everyone is coming from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-23-2004 6:20 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 03-23-2004 6:39 PM Jackal25 has not replied
 Message 11 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-23-2004 9:39 PM Jackal25 has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 162 (94225)
03-23-2004 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jackal25
03-23-2004 6:32 PM


I should also add that an atheist, and many agnostics and theists, are not afraid to simply say, "I don't know". That seems to be an answer that some Christians don't like very much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jackal25, posted 03-23-2004 6:32 PM Jackal25 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by d_yankee, posted 11-24-2004 10:49 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 10 of 162 (94243)
03-23-2004 8:02 PM


Thread moved here from the Evolution forum.

Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 162 (94267)
03-23-2004 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jackal25
03-23-2004 6:32 PM


Jackel, I could discuss some of my beliefs as an atheist, but my point was that validation and acceptance of scientific principles is generally not related to any form of personal belief, be it christianity, atheist, etc. The conflict arises when a belief system contradicts scientific findings. There are many devout christians, my wife among them, who are perfectly able to understannd and accept TOE on its merits without a conflict with faith. I am not trying to knock your personal beliefs, I just want you to understand that evolution, or any scientific concept, is not a "atheistic" pricinciple. Scientific progress tries its best to exclude such bias from the proccess one way or another. As such, for people of faith who don't percieve a conflict with their faith and science, there isn't a one.
Creationism, both young and old earth models, are based on a belief that the bible is the literal word of god and therefore infallible. The viewpoint goes that god's word can't be wrong, therefore any conflict between creationism and science must indicate, by creationist standards, that the science is wrong.
Now, we could discuss various logical fallacies in this arguement, but that is not my intention at this time. I just want you to understant that your viewpoint is not the viewpoint of all christians. The conflict stems from a particular interpretation of the bible. Many people don't take a literalist view, and therefore don't have your perceived conflict.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jackal25, posted 03-23-2004 6:32 PM Jackal25 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Jackal25, posted 03-24-2004 12:23 AM Darwin Storm has replied

Jackal25
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 162 (94301)
03-24-2004 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Darwin Storm
03-23-2004 9:39 PM


Darwin I hope you dont think we are having an argument here at all. I was just wanting to find out how the atheist thinks since I have never personally talked to an atheist which I want to very much so, and to be pesonal when I sayed that I have always beleived God created all that is not entirely true. I have always gone to church just because my mother made me and just recently actually have taken the time to understand it. Recently meaning 3 to 4 months. I now totally beleive everything that I have read since then, but before I can totally believe I am a person that likes to know all sides of any story, or in this case completely different sides. So I am sorry if you took my comments that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-23-2004 9:39 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-24-2004 12:34 AM Jackal25 has not replied
 Message 14 by NosyNed, posted 03-24-2004 12:36 AM Jackal25 has replied

Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 162 (94304)
03-24-2004 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Jackal25
03-24-2004 12:23 AM


By arugment, I mean livley discussion. No worries, I am not easily offended anyways. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I have little problem answering personal questions, nor am I offended. I am not sure this is the best thread for the conversation, but if you want to ask anything, feel free, or open a new thread, and just let me know which. Of course, my views and beliefs, though atheistic, are not going to be the same views or beliefs as other atheists, beyond a common lack of beleif in deities. You'll find as many shades of athiests as you will christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Jackal25, posted 03-24-2004 12:23 AM Jackal25 has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 14 of 162 (94305)
03-24-2004 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Jackal25
03-24-2004 12:23 AM


Differences
If you have an opportunity to talk to a number of articulate, thoughtful people you may be surprised in where the dividing lines in modes of thought actually are.
As I have stated elsewhere here, I (an atheist) have more in common in worldview and thinking with a Christian minister friend than she does with the fundamentalist Christians.
Atheists come in all stripes just as Christians do. They are frequently able to sustain an aura of awe at the magnificence of the universe around them that is just as strong as any more "spiritual" person. Don't be too quick to think that you know how someone thinks just because they have a label on their forhead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Jackal25, posted 03-24-2004 12:23 AM Jackal25 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Jackal25, posted 03-24-2004 12:40 AM NosyNed has replied

Jackal25
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 162 (94306)
03-24-2004 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by NosyNed
03-24-2004 12:36 AM


Re: Differences
Ned once again I have to say I never said I know anything, I am trying to learn if you would read what I said. I never said I know how someone thinks from there label, just trying to learn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by NosyNed, posted 03-24-2004 12:36 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 03-24-2004 1:00 AM Jackal25 has replied

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