The following was written during Trump's first administration, but is equally applicable now:
American Pastoral:... The Trump administration, dogged with endless scandal and corruption, simply doubles down. Mired in a cesspool of moral and ethical offenses and plain old crimes, the nation seems stunned, our political parties paralyzed. Offense on offense is dumped in the public lap, a myriad of impeachable acts are done and while the air is sour with alarm, almost nothing has happened to confront the new reality. Yet there is a reason for this stasis, one which curiously is what provokes it.
The ascendancy of Trump, seen by many as an aberration, a slap in the face to our sense of civil decorum, was in reality simply an unveiling of ourselves. For decades, America has been corrupt and rotted to the core – not just the hard-right business-oriented sorts, but our nice soft liberals as well. On the right, the military-industrial complex and its endless wars was encouraged to expand since there was much profit to be made from it, and few raised a complaint. Now President Eisenhower’s Farewell speech warning has come to full flower, and both Republicans and Democrats genuflect to the military, while civilians pay their taxes and utter “Thank you for your service” while veterans, utterly abandoned after that “service”, commit suicide at such rate that far more have died that way than in combat.
On the liberal side the corruption can be seen in universities that have become secondary to their football and basketball teams, where grade inflation and cozy “legacy” admissions warp the fabric of education. It can be seen in the empty gestures toward “green” behavior, with recycling and hybrid cars and endless feel-good symbolic acts which utterly fail to address the reality that America is a vicious militarist/capitalist system which seizes 25% of the globe’s resources to serve 4.4 % of the world’s population. To effect any real change requires a drastic down-sizing of American consumption, something which even the most liberal of Americans will not consider. They will say instead that the 25% must simply be more equitably distributed, not that we need to cut back 80% to properly fit our population. It is a moral corruption no less damning than the rude billionaire’s club of the Republican’s.
I am in agreement with much of Josts perspective. Taq, you seem to think that life would be normal had Harris won. I can assure you that we would eventually have a host of other problems. Trump, for all his boasts, is crashing the system on purpose. Wiping out the so-called Deep State. If we don't have a controlled implosion now, we will eventually have a more hurtful one later on.
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy God alone is God *but* God is not alone~Ellis Potter We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
Critics would of course say that "God" is a product of human imagination...but then again God may well declare that all of creation is a product of His imagination! It is all in the perspective of the observer.~Phat
Re: A Chilling Stance by the Government: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
The lightbulb will gradually come on one conservative at a time, and for a good number it will likely never come on, but there is no need for you to give witness here to any "awakening" (wokeness? ) you might be experiencing. Nobody who isn't operating under the Trump Unreality Field is surprised by the consequences of the Trump Vengeance Tour. Go back to Phat Unplugged.
I am in agreement with much of Josts perspective. Taq, you seem to think that life would be normal had Harris won. I can assure you that we would eventually have a host of other problems. Trump, for all his boasts, is crashing the system on purpose. Wiping out the so-called Deep State. If we don't have a controlled implosion now, we will eventually have a more hurtful one later on.
Restating only the portions that are not bald assertions unsupported by evidence or argument:
He made good on his tariffs campaign promise with a vengeance. Where it goes from here is anybody's guess - and there are many worthy sages a-guessing - there are too many microeconomic, macroeconomic, and geopolitical variables at play. Not to mention the geopolitical machinations that are privy only to presidents, prime ministers and the like.
I'll take Trump at his word that he's doing this to make the USA stronger and better. I also believe that if he succeeds he will make the rest of the world stronger and better.
Regarding the handwringing over the economy and the stock market, things need to be put into perspective. Decades ago, Pat Buchanan, a guy with lots of controversial ideas and a few really good ones, pointed out:
"To me, the country comes before the economy; and the economy exists for the people. I believe in free markets, but I do not worship them. In the proper hierarchy of things, it is the market that must be harnessed to work for man – and not the other way around...."
More recently Senator Eric Schmitt put it this way:
“America is not an economic zone. It’s not a strip mall with an airport attached. It’s a nation. It’s a people. It’s our home.”
(quotes above courtesy of Philip Wegman in Real Clear Politics)
Back in 2022 the now-PM Georgia Meloni of Italy, in defining her movement, declared:
"We are the enemy to those who would like us to have no identity, to be the perfect consumer slaves."
The USA and the rest of the world need to re-orient their thinking to these principles.
He made good on his tariffs campaign promise with a vengeance.
Yes - vengeance on all and sundry: friend, foe, and us, too.
Where it goes from here is anybody's guess - and there are many worthy sages a-guessing - there are too many microeconomic, macroeconomic, and geopolitical variables at play.
It's no mystery to anyone what happens from here: prices everywhere go up, inflation everywhere goes up, economies everywhere go down.
It is, of course, a big mystery what will happen in the longer term as countries navigate their way through the fallout, finding new sources of goods, new trading partners, forming new trading blocks, etc.
Not to mention the geopolitical machinations that are privy only to presidents, prime ministers and the like.
This isn't much of a mystery, either. If the U.S. continues on this course then our world influence, both economic and military, will decline in a way similar to Great British after Brexit.
I'll take Trump at his word that he's doing this to make the USA stronger and better. I also believe that if he succeeds he will make the rest of the world stronger and better.
We all hope that Trump succeeds, but it's hard to see how success will emerge from high tariffs. They will have a negative impact on the world economy just as Smoot-Hawley did during the Depression. The Trump administration's unpredictability makes businesses unable to plan and is another negative economic force.
Regarding the handwringing over the economy and the stock market, things need to be put into perspective. Decades ago, Pat Buchanan, a guy with lots of controversial ideas and a few really good ones, pointed out:
"To me, the country comes before the economy; and the economy exists for the people. I believe in free markets, but I do not worship them. In the proper hierarchy of things, it is the market that must be harnessed to work for man – and not the other way around...."
Today that would be rephrased as, "It is the market that must be harnessed to work for Trump and those he deems friendly to him."
Back in 2022 the now-PM Georgia Meloni of Italy, in defining her movement, declared:
"We are the enemy to those who would like us to have no identity, to be the perfect consumer slaves."
The USA and the rest of the world need to re-orient their thinking to these principles.
What are you saying? Doesn't "harnessing a market to work for man" mean more regulation, the opposite of the conservative position? Can it really be said that the U.S. has "no identity"? Is the U.S. in danger of becoming a country of "consumer slaves", and what does that mean, anyway?
This discussion has been moved to The Second Trump Presidency, but why would we be lucky if it goes very bad, very quickly?
This is your Liz Truss moment, free markets follow the money, when that starts having real effects on livelihoods and lives you may come to your senses.
I saw my very first MAGA hat today in London - Make America Go Away.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
‘SNL’ Mocks *****’s Tariff Plan, Elon Musk about “Self-Vandalizing” Teslas
Elon:... we’re introducing the new Tesla Model V, the first electric car in history to be fully self-vandalizing, with features like self-smashing headlights, slashing tires and AI-powered graffiti. You can choose from penises or swastikas, or my favorite, swastikas made out of penises.”
So the question is, does parody ***** sound more or less stupid the real *****? Parody *****'s voice tone is certainly less annoying.
Moose
Edited by Admin, : Weirdly, Trump had been added to the list of censored words for the Minnimooseus account, as well as a couple others. I've removed them.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Not weird - My effort to auto-bleep my usage of the T name.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Reativated the auto-bleep.
Not sure what Liz Truss moment refers to, other than Liz Truss is the PM who popped up and popped out in a blink.
Are you for the tariffs or against the tariffs? Myself, I don't know if I support them or not, but I do know we're in for an interesting ride.
I do know that many countries have used protectionist tariffs for a long time to their benefit (China, Japan, Vietnam, 1800's USA,....). This argues against the internal devastation that so many are screaming about. Also, Trumps tariffs are something-less-than-reciprocal, so why are the affected countries crying foul?
The erstwhile, hapless Canadien PM Justin Trudeau helped put these reactions in relief when he warned Americans that Trump's tariffs on Canada would hurt them (Americans). Have to wonder what he would tell his own constituents about his own tariffs on other countries.
Strange times, strange reactions, strange outcries. Somebody is hiding something, somebody is protecting something.
The Wall Street Journal:Perhaps the most striking aspect of Trump’s dramatic move to reposition the American economy is the timing. The economy he inherited was the envy of the world with growth of 2.8% last year, faster than almost every other major developed economy, an unemployment rate of just 4.1% and inflation of 2.8%. Stocks were at record highs.
Let us not forget this starting point of the second Trump presidency: a healthy and growing economy with low unemployment and inflation, the envy of the world. It's not much unlike when Trump took office in 2017 when the Obama economy he took over was in much the same state, healthy and growing, for which he took full credit, often claiming that when he took over the economy was in a shambles and he made it great. This is a common component of the Trump formula, take credit for things he had nothing to do with. For instance, he calls himself a self-made millionaire when the reality is that he inherited $400 million from his father.
I'm no good at predictions, but I'll throw one out there anyway: all economic measures for 2025 will be worse than for 2024, meaning slower growth or even negative growth, higher unemployment, higher inflation, and lower stocks.
Not sure what Liz Truss moment refers to, other than Liz Truss is the PM who popped up and popped out in a blink.
She "popped out" in just 45 days because of her ill-conceived financial moves as PM. Tangle was analogizing between her financial moves and Trump's.
Are you for the tariffs or against the tariffs?
I know you're asking Tangle, but I'll answer anyway. As a fiscal conservative I'm for free trade, therefore I think tariffs should be used sparingly and strategically.
Myself, I don't know if I support them or not, but I do know we're in for an interesting ride.
Sounds a bit like a purported Chinese curse. In February Trump said, "Will there be some pain? Yes, maybe...and maybe not! But we will make America great again, and it will all be worth the price that must be paid."
I do know that many countries have used protectionist tariffs for a long time to their benefit (China, Japan, Vietnam, 1800's USA,....).
Here's what I could find for America's top ten trading partners:
Mexico: No tariffs because of the USMCA free trade agreement.
Canada: Because of the USMCA free trade agreement, most American goods entered Canada duty-free.
China: 20.7% tariffs were imposed in 2019 in retaliation for U.S. tariffs imposed the year before in 2018.
Germany: As a member of the EU, 3% tariffs.
Japan: 2.7% trade weighted average tariff rate
South Koriea: Most American goods duty-free.
Vietnam: They keep changing, but generally 2%-10%, the higher tariffs applying to agricultural products.
United Kingdom: Averge 3% tariff rate.
India: Average 5.87% tariff rate.
Taiwan: Average 5.26% tariff rate.
The tariff rates in the above list seem very reasonable, except for China which raised their tariff on us after we raised our tariffs on them. Excepting China, none of these rates are anywhere near high enough to apply your "protectionist" label.
Also, Trumps tariffs are something-less-than-reciprocal, so why are the affected countries crying foul?
Let's compare the tariff rates of our top ten trading partners with Trump's new tariffs:
Country
Their Old Tariff Rate On the U.S.
The New U.S. Tariff Rate on Them
Amount Our New Tariff Rate Exceeds Their Old One
Mexico
0%
25%
25%
Canada
0%
25% (10% on oil and gas)
25% (10% on oil and gas)
China
20.7%
54%
33.3%
Germany
3%
20%
17%
Japan
2.7%
10% baseline plus up to 24% reciprocal tariffs
7.3% baseline plus up to 24% reciprocal
South Koriea
0%
10% baseline plus up to 25% reciprocal tariffs
10% baseline plus up to 25% reciprocal
Vietnam
2%-10%
10% baseline plus up to 46% reciprocal tariffs
0-8% baseline plus up to 46% reciprocal
United Kingdom
3%
10% baseline plus 25% on steel, aluminum and automobiles
7% baseline plus up to 25% reciprocal
India
5.87%
10% baseline plus 27% reciprocal
4.13% baseline plus 21.13% reciprocal
Taiwan
5.26%
10% baseline plus 32% reciprocal
4.74% baseline plus 26.74% reciprocal
As you can plainly see, the Trump imposed tariffs on other countries greatly exceed their tariffs on us.
This argues against the internal devastation that so many are screaming about.
I don't know what this means.
The erstwhile, hapless Canadien PM Justin Trudeau helped put these reactions in relief when he warned Americans that Trump's tariffs on Canada would hurt them (Americans). Have to wonder what he would tell his own constituents about his own tariffs on other countries.
Justin Trudeau would likely tell his former constituents that Canada's tariffs on other countries are generally pretty low. They average around 3.3%, even after taking into account their incredibly high tariffs on dairy products of 200% to 300%.
Strange times, strange reactions, strange outcries. Somebody is hiding something, somebody is protecting something.
No mystery here, either. The Trump administration is the opposite of transparent, engaging freely in gaslighting, misrepresentations and lies, and protected by people like you who for reasons only you can understand think it is all wonderful, but maybe because you follow a philosophy of, "Trump said it, I believe it, that settles it."
It would be wonderful if the U.S. and the world could emerge from this relatively unscathed, but it seems unlikely.
Not sure what Liz Truss moment refers to, other than Liz Truss is the PM who popped up and popped out in a blink.
Popped out in a blink because she tried to do something far less dumb than Trump with the economy but her party was at least smart enough to euthanise her when it tanked.
Are you for the tariffs or against the tariffs? Myself, I don't know if I support them or not, but I do know we're in for an interesting ride.
I'm opposed to stupidity, hubris and greed. This moron is going to stuff your economy quickly just like Truss - if you're lucky. If you're unlucky it'll take time and trash it more permanently before you can get rid of the orange clown and his circus.
Somebody is hiding something, somebody is protecting something.
No one is hiding anything - it's all out there in the open for even the idiots to see.
Edited by Tangle, .
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Justin Trudeau would likely tell his former constituents that Canada's tariffs on other countries are generally pretty low. They average around 3.3%, even after taking into account their incredibly high tariffs on dairy products of 200% to 300%.
of note those tariffs only kick AFTER a set amount of goods have been imported. This limit has never been reached.
Something you should have figured out is that just because tariff’s work in some cases doesn’t mean that these particular tariffs will work. When they’re just thrown together without understanding what’s going on can you expect them to work well?
The tariffs were calculated against trade balances - excluding services without considering the reasons for the balances. Rather than actually finding out about actual trade barriers they just assumed that trade imbalances were due to tariffs or the equivalent. Which is wrong.
Even worse, nobody knows if these tariffs will stick. Trump has already bern shilly-shallying around with the tariffs on Mexico and Canada. Businesses need stability to plan.
Producing in America is not just going to happen by magic. Factories don’t just appear - they can take years to build and fit. Skilled workers don’t magically appear either.
And don’t forget that one of the purposes of the tariffs is to shift part of the tax burden from the rich to the less-well-off.
And the tariffs are hardly the worst thing Trump is doing. Well it may be the worst thing for the rest of the world - in the short term. But there’s plenty of other things - RFK jr’s attacks on public health is one. The Executive Orders targeting law firms who take cases Trump doesn’t like is another - and anyone who values a free society should be profoundly disturbed by that. (So I guess that neither you nor Marc will care).
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
) you might be experiencing. Nobody who isn't operating under the Trump Unreality Field is surprised by the consequences of the Trump Vengeance Tour. Go back to Phat Unplugged.
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