Even if the Ukraine war is unpopular with a majority of the American people, it is still essential for European security and for upholding the ideals of supporting democracy throughout the world. It is up to our elected representatives to make that clear to the American people and not just mechanically do what the people want at the moment. That's how Brexit happened, for just one recent example.
Did it ever occur to you that most people want us to downsize...to step back from being the leader of the free world? Its like the strong guy with a truck always helping everyone move and always doing a majority of the work. We are tired of it. Tell that to the representatives.
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy God alone is God *but* God is not alone~Ellis Potter We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
Critics would of course say that "God" is a product of human imagination...but then again God may well declare that all of creation is a product of His imagination! It is all in the perspective of the observer.~Phat
You don't seem to understand why Americans have the cushy, privileged lives we've had for the last ~70 years.
Yes, we're privileged even when the US economy isn't working well for most working Americans.
US influence isn't just about playing "world police." And while you'll get a lot of broad agreement that the US shoudln't be so willing to throw military force around, defending allies under active invasion from an adversary "superpower" when we have a signed international agreement promising exactly that support in exactly that situation is not what most people mean.
US influence, including soft power, pays us back massive dividends. We have benefited from amazingly prosperous trade deals, trade routes, free access to foreign markets, and more because of that influence. Not to mention avoiding war - every dollar we spend on soft power (meaning diplomacy and non-military foreign aid) saves us multiple dollars...in bullets. And lives.
Isolationist rhetoric like what you're parroting is precisely what caused the Great Depression.
-->“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
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"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." 1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)
Isolationist rhetoric like what you're parroting is precisely what caused the Great Depression.
The Great Depression was cause more by other factors, such as highly unsafe banking practices which mixed commercial and investment assets, margin trading, etc -- those were addressed by Glass-Steagall (1933) which was dropped under Clinton because "we're too smart now to have to protect ourselves from being so dumb" which led to the Crash of 2008 (again, see The Big Short). Matters leading from the Crash to the Great Depression were made worse by the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act (1930).
As Ferris Bueller would have learned if he hadn't skipped class that day:
BTW, I did learn about tariffs in 11th grade US History class. Didn't anybody else attend high school? They did? Then what's their excuse now?
Rather, the big isolationist movement was nearly a decade later in the late 1930's and supported by Germany's NSDAP ("Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei ", "National-Socialist German Workers Party", AKA "Nazi"). At least many in the America First Committee were Nazi-sympathizers (most notably their principal speaker, Charles Lindbergh). In her book and pod-cast, Prequel: An American Fight Against Fascism, Rachel Maddow has reviewed a lot of the history of them and other such groups. A few days ago, she covered the history of an isolationist Senator who died in a plane crash before delivering a key speech which had been written for him by Nazi Germany, rather similar to how too many GOP members keep reciting Kremlin talking points.
So, isolationism works to keep us out of world affairs so that the dictators are free to do whatever they want unimpeded. Including in the end taking us down as we stand alone without anyone to come to our rescue.
Trump doesn't care if Ukraine wins or loses. He just wants the war to stop. One easy way to bring the war to an end is to end support for Ukraine, both in terms of materiel and intelligence. He has withdrawn both forms of support from Ukraine, and now Russia is pounding Ukraine even more fiercely, which he says is just what Russia *should* do.
Trump doesn't understand that a victorious Russia means weakened security for Europe, which in turn means weakened security for the United States. When Russian flags are flying from sea to shining sea, when Russian becomes the lingua franca from Vladivostok to Dublin, when the ruble becomes the favored world currency, even then Trump still won't understand the atrocity he has committed on the world.
He also hasn't realised that Europe now regards the US as an unreliable ally and is beefing up its military spending and whereas once it would have spent a lot of it in the US it will now start looking into its own production.
I see that the US stock market is falling which the orange sh1t is trying to blame on the "globalists" whatever they are. The economy will follow as his beautiful tariffs start to cause domestic inflation. Sadly we need the US economy to tank to get rid of this idiot.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
I can't go along. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If it's okay for us to call for their assassinations then it's okay them to call for the assassination of us.
But taking the high road, or at least a higher road than the other guy, is a fool's game when you're playing with Trump. He has no shame, no morals, no code beyond doing and taking what he wants. Many who see Trump for what he is seem like the gentle giants of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (fantasy series from a half century ago) who in the face of unspeakable evil wouldn't act against their nature even to save their very lives.
I've been trying to say this, but it was better said in this piece by Claude Malhuret that appeared in The Atlantic:
Trump Is Nero While Washington Burns:And above all: make no mistake. The defeat of Ukraine would be the defeat of Europe. The Baltic states, Georgia, and Moldova are already on the list. Putin’s goal is to return to the Yalta Agreement, where half the continent was ceded to Stalin. ... The shock is violent, but it has one virtue. The Europeans are coming out of denial. They understood in a single day in Munich that the survival of Ukraine and the future of Europe are in their hands, and that they have three imperatives.
Accelerate military aid to Ukraine to compensate for the American abandonment, so that Ukraine can hang on, and of course to secure its and Europe’s place at the negotiating table. ... We must convince public opinion in the face of war weariness and fear, and above all in the face of Putin’s collaborators on the far right and far left.
They say they want peace. What neither they nor Trump says is that their peace is capitulation, the peace of defeat, the replacement of a de Gaullian Zelensky by a Ukrainian Pétain under Putin’s thumb.The peace of collaborators who, for three years, have refused to support the Ukrainians in any way.
Trump doesn't seem to understand the threat. He doesn't understand that Europe needs Ukraine and we need Europe. His "America First" approach is actually "America Alone". Going back to the days when the USSR controlled half of Europe makes us less secure, not more, and Trump clearly doesn't understand that. He's very simplistic. He looks at polls, the stock market, the value of the dollar, and pithy stories that make his point and that are usually lies.
Trump doesn't seem to understand the threat. He doesn't understand that Europe needs Ukraine and we need Europe.
Don't make the mistake that Trump's goals are the same as the nation's. It's all part of the plan. Understanding has nothing to do with it.
Of course, I'm of the opinion that Trump is a Russian asset, bought by Putin years ago. Much more than a useful idiot, possibly short of an actual agent. Everything that we see and have seen Trump do falls right in line with Putin's interests.
Trump Is Nero While Washington Burns:They say they want peace.
The Naughty Nazis song:
quote:
All I want is peace. Peace! Peace! A little piece of Poland, a little piece of France, ...
3% fall in stocks today, Tesla down 15%. The markets didn't like the Orange Git's statement that he's ok with a recession.
Did you vote for that too Phat?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
3% fall in stocks today, Tesla down 15%. The markets didn't like the Orange Git's statement that he's ok with a recession. Did you vote for that too Phat?
At this point it matters little who voted for what.
The economy has been on shaky ground since COVID. If you believe otherwise, you can stick your heads back in the sand. The Democratic party are the masters of kicking the can down the road in the name of human needs. Republicans are less empathetic. They will trim the fat even if it means that your sweet gay Uncle who got a DEI Job in the name of...(well, fill in the blank) gets cut. You claim to be a finance guy, yet you have seemingly had little clue as to the reality of economics since 2008. Im not worshiping Trump nor do I intend to. He is a moving train wreck because he has no empathy for DEI jobs nor big government.
Nevertheless, the United States that he inherited was closer to being broke than you thought.
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy God alone is God *but* God is not alone~Ellis Potter We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
Critics would of course say that "God" is a product of human imagination...but then again God may well declare that all of creation is a product of His imagination! It is all in the perspective of the observer.~Phat
At this point it matters little who voted for what.
It normally takes a year or two before we hear this particular evasion "we are where we are, we need to look to the future not the past." Well no, you don't get out of making absolutely stupid decisions like that.
It's hard to find anyone that will admit to voting for Brexit now in the UK and the political mood music is moving towards a rapprochement sometime in the next parliament. I predict that it will get harder and harder to find a MAGA hat over the coming years.
It's not like you weren't warned but even the people doing the warning couldn't predict how bat-shit crazy this lot would be and how it would fuck up the world order so damn quickly. People are so damn thick and selfish - particularly the bloody insane Christians.
If you know a Canadian, I suggest you avoid him, they're looking quite angry right now. And so am I, Trump is screwing up the whole damn world.
Edited by Tangle, .
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
3% fall in stocks today, Tesla down 15%. The markets didn't like the Orange Git's statement that he's ok with a recession. Did you vote for that too Phat?
At this point it matters little who voted for what.
I had the same reaction as Tangle: isn't it a little early for this type of evasion?
I wish you'd answer the question because I'm curious, too: Is what we've seen since Trump took office what you wanted to happen when you voted for him?
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