Why are we so bad at this?

Your willful idiocy makes you a blood-thirsty murderous monster through your insistence upon and support for stupid anti-abortion laws that kill women for no other purpose than dogmatic unbiblical "religious" beliefs. And "cultural warfare" fueled by willful stupidity.You keep willfully denying the existence of undeniable medical realities, which includes the reality that pregnancies can fail and those failures have the very high likelihood of seriously injuring or even killing the mother, and which require immediate medical care. Why do you persist in denying those undeniable truths?Instead, you scribble down stupid laws the forbid doctors from providing the medical care that a woman in the midst of a failed pregnancy desperately needs, such that without that necessary medical she could very well DIE. THAT IS NOT THE SUBJECT BEING DISCUSSED, YOU IDIOT! Pull your head out of your ass! A mother suffering a failed pregnancy is not asserting any right to "kill her own baby", but rather is fighting for her life, for her right to stay alive! *I* am advocating for her right to receive the necessary medical treatment to save her life YOU are demanding that she be denied that necessary medical treatment such that she will DIE UNNECESSARILY!You try to rationalize her unnecessary death as being necessary to "save the life of the fetus", which is a lie (and you already lie so much already). Are you too stupid to realize that if the mother dies, then so does the fetus? And many failed pregnancies fail because the fetus is already dying on its own. So how is killing the mother supposed to save the life of that fetus?Those are not rhetorical questions. I DEMAND THAT YOU ANSWER THEM! I demand that you at least try to defend your position of killing the mother as a way to save the fetus. Your mindless repeating of stupid reality-denying dogma does not suffice.What part of "she will die without this treatment" do you refuse to acknowledge? Why do you persist in insisting that she be pushed to the edge of death and beyond? Why do you insist that a woman with a failed pregnancy be denied the medical treatment that she needs "in order to save her fetus", when that fetus is already dying in most cases (eg, from a raging bacterial infection) or at the very least will die anyway when the mother dies? So tell us, you fucking moron, just exactly how that fetus is supposed to survive the death of its mother?Here's an analogy: Please don't lie about what the Bible and God say! God is not demanding that a life be taken for accidentally killing an unborn baby, BUT RATHER FOR ALSO HARMING THE MOTHER!Tie down your jerking knee, pull your head out, and READ IT this time!.Done? And you still don't understand it? Jessica H. Christ!, you are hopeless!OK, let's draw on a common Talmudic approach even though it will fly way over your extremely low-overhead cranium. Though Pascal's Wager (stupidly misunderstood and misused by fundies) uses the same approach. Anyone with computer or digital electronics or logic experience will recognize this construct as a truth table.Consider two conditions when taken together yield four outcomes. Here, the two conditions are killing the mother or killing the fetus (referred to as "doing harm"):

1. If the mother is harmed and the fetus is harmed, then give life for life. Note that the penalty is due to what happens to the mother, not to the fetus.
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2. If the mother is harmed and the fetus is not harmed, then give life for life. This case would never happen, since killing the mother would automatically kill the fetus too. Hence, yet again the penalty is due to what happens to the mother, not to the fetus.
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3. If the mother is not harmed and the fetus is harmed, then pay a fine to the father for his loss of property. No life for a life, since the fetus does not yet qualify as having a life.
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4. If the mother is not harmed and the fetus is not harmed, then nothing is to be done. No harm, no fowl.

A "life for life" penalty is only called for because of harm to the mother, but not for harm to the fetus. When only the fetus is harmed, then it's just a monetary fine, never a "life for life" penalty.What the hell are you getting your "God even demands that a life shall be taken for accidentally killing an unborn baby" from? Did you just pull that nonsense out of your ass?The rest is just the same stupid bullshit that you vomit every time. Remember: Man ist was man ißt. ("You are what you eat" -- so if you constantly feed on bullshit then you end up being bullshit).Abortion is a medical procedure. Contrary to your misguided misconception, elective abortion is not the only use of that medical procedure. There are many medical situations where abortion is NECESSARY, not elective.Promoting and supporting misguided laws intended to end elective abortions by banning all abortions necessarily have the effect of banning the vitally needed abortions WITHOUT WHICH THE MOTHER WILL DIE.And whenever a mother dies because of your insistence that she be denied necessary medical care, then you are indeed to blame for her death!You are indeed a bloodthirsty monster demanding the deaths of women.QED Now reply to Percy's Message 26 question directly to you: HINT: willfully ignoring medically necessary abortions will never persuade us of anything other than your hypocritic brutality.

As are atheists.But you are for the taking of innocent lives, the innocent lives of women suffering from failed pregnancies.So you are lying to me, TO MY FACE, YET AGAIN!Have you no shame? No, atheists do not believe murder is okay. Rather, it is you "true Christians" (ie, fake "Christians" who have abandoned Christian teachings) who, through your actions (not your words because you are hypocrites) demonstrate that you do believe that murder is okay.If you disagree, then show us otherwise. Show us your compassion for women whom you would condemn to a horrible death for suffering a failed pregnancy.That's right, you have no compassion.

Abortion is often a necessity to save the mother’s life. You say, no, your god wants both dead. Actually, it is you who wants both dead. You don’t have to believe in your own fantasies, you know. It’s you in the midst of an emotional storm who is demanding blood.I too grieve for the lost potential of aborted fetuses. Not from any “life force” woo-woo stance but from the unfulfilled discoveries and abilities these unique combinations of human genetics may have developed. This species is in deep trouble. Our technology and resultant lifestyles have placed us on a path to early extinction. Making more babies is not the solution but neither is killing those we have already made. A great potential for fixes and answers may be in that new genetics. But abortion is still much too useful a tool in our modern culture.What no one is asking is why abortion is so useful a tool.We refuse to fund the family support programs. We refuse to fund the mother/infant health and nutrition programs. Unless a woman has a strong emotional and financial structure behind her in this modern society a baby is often more than she can handle alone. Mothers and societies suffer from the burden of unwanted children. Abortion provides a quick and easy remedy.The potential fix?Fund more science into safe ways to stop conception. Educate our children on safe and preventative sexual practices. Bring the number of troublesome conceptions down. Then have the social infrastructure (food, housing, medical) fully able to contribute to whatever level is necessary before, during, after the birth.Candle3, are you willing to double, triple, more, your taxes to fund all these necessities to child life?Abortion will continue until society makes birth preferable. Restricting access, criminalizing, threatening bloodlust revenge, will only drive the practice underground. The need is still there and will be used, just more brutal, bloody and painful.The best and most permanent way to lessen abortion is to provide the mother and child support.Candle3, are you willing to stop hating and criminalizing and restricting others freedoms with no hope of success? Are you willing to do the moral, humane thing, and pay more $$$ (a lot more $$$) to lessen the social need for abortion? Instead of calling for blood, spend money. Can you do that?

Dr. jones, you stated:"what about the right to not reproduce? or are women just
walking incubators to you?"***Guess what! They already have the right to not produce.What you and the others on this forum want is for women to
be able to kill their own babies when they completely
ignore the possibility that having unprotected sex can lead
to a pregnancy.People also have the right to not steal and rob from others.
They can disregard this if they wish. And a female can also
disregard their right to not produce by engaging in actions
that was specifically designed to produce babies.How come you, Dwise, AZ, and others on this forum, fail to
understand this concept?Americans have begun to act like wild animals. The Left's
preoccupation with killing their own is sadistic.It would never occur to the left to take responsibility for their
actions.But u/s this: I respect a woman's right to not have babies as
much as respect a woman's right to have babies. They are
equal in my mind.However, once a woman becomes pregnant I expect her to
take responsibility for her actions. But I also expect this from
the man.A lot of men wants women to have abortions so that they
too can skip out on their responsibility.Men who think like this are just as guilty as women. It seems
that many men can no longer man-up.

I wish no elective abortions ever happened, but I am not in charge of other peoples' bodies. Why do you think you are in charge of the bodies of other women?

Hi Candle3,Abortion isn't the topic, so let's try to return to the actual topic, which one could loosely define as the art of persuasion. Endlessly repeating this isn't proving successful. How do you think you might better persuade people that abortion is murder?--Percy

Because it is a complete non sequitur, IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, you fucking moron!!!!We are talking about your fanatical crusade to kill innocent women under the flimsy pretense of "protecting the unborn". Your fanatical crusade has flooded our country with anti-abortion laws which threaten doctors with extremely severe punishment if they provide medical treatment to women suffering from failed pregnancies. Failure to provide that necessary medical treatment THAT YOU DO NOT WANT THEM TO RECEIVE will, in the vast majority of cases, result in the woman's death.Those women want to see their pregnancy to term; they want that baby as does the father. Many of them already have other children. IOW, those women bear absolutely NO semblance to the stereotyped women you insist on railing against.Unlike your stupid bullshit fantasies, those women we describe actually exist. Many have actually died because of you, which is what makes you the bloodthirsty monster that you are. The lucky ones had the means to flee their benighted state with its barbaric laws and seek medical treatment in a civilized state, but should you get your way and put a national ban in place, then their only hope will be to flee the country -- even that avenue will be cut off from them with your laws restricting the travel of a pregnant woman, etc.Every time we try to discuss this situation with you, you run away from it, completely ignore that it exists, and choose to try to change the subject with your stupid bullshit abortion rantings.Simply put, you are an abomination. STOP KILLING INNOCENT WOMEN!How come you fail to understand this concept?

Helen Mirren:

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You filthy beast!

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Percy, you stated:"Endlessly repeating this isn't proving successful. How do
you think you might better persuade people that abortion
is murder?"***Do you know that a 12 week old baby swallows fluid and
passes it out as urine. His kidneys and digestive system
function.There is strong evidence that they can feel pain. This pain is
similar to a newborn or adult would feel. The thalamus is
responsible for pain perception; the brain cortex is not
necessary.For many years liberals, and doctors who make a good living
from abortions, have downplayed the fact that at 12 weeks
a baby can feel pain. But, this has now shifted to whether the
pain is significant.Why would any compassionate individual dismiss this as
being insignificant?A heartbeat can be detected by the 5th or 6th week. It can be
heard on ultrasound by the 10th week.At twelve week the baby looks exactly like a newborn.The youngest baby to ever survive outside of the mother's
womb is Curtis Means. He was 21 weeks old, and weighed
just 11.9 pounds.The same people who insist that an unborn baby is not a
person are also in favor of charging someone who murders a
pregnant woman with two murders.I challenge anyone who is in favor of infanticide to look at the
pictures of aborted babies. Not just to look at them, but to look
at them closely.Aborted babies are ripped apart and then suctioned out of
the womb. But some are burned with chemicals. This is
exactly what happens to them. Why would I not tell it exactly
how it is?Nurses and assistants have heard babies scream while an
abortion is being carried out. Many of them quit after
experiencing this.It is estimated that between 400 and 500 (Dr. Willard Cates)
abortions are botched every year.This number is most higher; perhaps, significantly higher.Abortion doctors and hospitals refer to this a "dreaded
complications." It is an embarrassment for the.Whether it is reported or not is dependant upon who is in the
room when it happens.Abortionists do not like to report these instances. It would be
like reporting self to the IRS for an audit.The "dreaded complications" are placed in back rooms and
left to die, all alone and in pain. Others are tossed into bags
and thrown into the trash receptacle.The abortion establishment, with help from the left, will do
everything within their power to hide facts from the public.Many women and men are upset that the federal government
has stopped supporting Planned Parenthood (misnomer). It
places the financial burden back to mother or state.They insist that abortion is a "right" and that the government
should pay for abortions.This is nonsense. But even if they were right, why should the
government pay for it?We have the right to religion. We have the right to own firearms.
We have freedom of speech. But the government is not going
to build us a church; buy us a gun; or, build us a news
network.It is ridiculous that someone can be attacked simply because
they defend the right of the most vulnerable among us.In the end it doesn't matter what we say, or how we say it,
they will still defend abortion.How they can look at the pictures of these unborn babies and
still not "get it?"

Just answer the fucking question, you stupid brain-dead asshole. Instead of spewing forth a torrent of bullshit lies. (since everything else you have posted has been nothing but bullshit lies, we know that the same applies here)And answer why you approve of, support, and promote laws that kill innocent women.Pull your head out of your ass.

All you did was to prove Percy's point. Nice piece of hoisting yourself on your own petard.You obviously have no desire whatsoever to persuade anyone of anything ... besides what a mindlessly despicable fanatic you are. That is the same with all the various forms of bullshit you post here, then ignore any replies except to post even more irrelevant bullshit. So what do you think you could possibly hope accomplish with such a deliberately losing strategy? Just vent your anger and hate at everybody else? Why don't you just save that for the neighborhood kids ("Get off my lawn, you little hoodlums!")?Or are you trying to fluff your fragile ego (or try to compensate for feelings of spiritual inadequacies) by attacking others just to make yourself feel "morally superior" to everybody else? But just how "morally superior" could it be to seek to ban all abortions, including the abortions required in grave medical emergencies to save the lives of innocent women suffering from failed pregnancies.?Your anti-abortion propaganda is bullshit. But the unnecessary suffering and death you visit upon innocent women is very real.Not that you would ever care, lacking a soul. Besides, you probably revel in their suffering.

Of course Christians nutters have more than one way of abusing people, including babies. This is in the news todayChristian US sect pushed women into giving up babies for adoption - BBC News

My question about how you might better persuade people that abortion is murder was meant to encourage you to rethink your approach in light of the information in the opening post. You instead continued on the same path.The topic in this thread isn't abortion. Abortion is fine as a working example of something you'd like to persuade people about, but this thread is about how most effectively to persuade. How might you modify your reply to me to better persuade?--Percy

Dwise, you wrote:"Just answer the fucking question, you stupid brain-dead
asshole. Instead of spewing forth a torrent of bullshit lies.
(since everything else you have posted has been nothing
but bullshit lies, we know that the same applies here)
​
And answer why you approve of, support, and promote laws
that kill innocent women.
​
Pull your head out of your ass."***You need to control yourself. You seem to have trouble
with keeping your emotions in check. Anyone who loses
control can talk this way. This is a weaknessWhat laws are you specifically talking about about?I have been talking about the killing of 1.3 million innocent
American babies every year.

It's because we are trying in vain to get through to a willfully ignorant and willfully stupid asshole who refuses to ever act in good faith, YOU.If you were to change to acting in good faith, then we could have a dialogue, maybe even a discussion. But you refuse to act in good faith, ever!You're the reason I posted that joke about the intelligent mule: We have been reduced to beating you over the head with a two-by-four in a desperate attempt to get your attention. But your skull is too thick (most likely solid bone).So what is it supposed to take to get through to you? The plethora of anti-abortion state laws that have dominated the news after the Dobbs decision struck down Roe v. Wade. What rock have you been hibernating under?There is some slight variations, but many of these laws are based on a model heartbeat bill which makes abortion illegal when a fetal heartbeat is present -- follow that link for more information including what each state has done. Many of these laws impose draconian punishment against doctors who violate this law, including loss of medical license, substantial prison sentences, or even the death penalty.Most of these laws allow exceptions for such things as rape, incest, health of the mother, but some do not allow any exceptions. Even the ones that allow exceptions are very vague about how to qualify for those exceptions. That means that doctors in the midst of handling a medical emergency doesn't know what he's allowed to do to save his patient and the fear of punishment for doing the right thing keeps him from acting. Indeed, in some cases the mother had to apply to the courts to get the exception but then the State of Texas denied her such that she had to flee the state in order to get medical treatment.Basically, the only clear part of the laws is that the doctor has to wait until the infection has finally killed the fetus such that the fetal heartbeat finally stops, but by that time the infection has raged unchecked in the mother's body leaving her on the verge of death before the doctor can feel personally safe enough to treat her.Many horror stories have come out, including the very sick mother being sent home repeatedly until the fetus' condition had deteriorated enough, or having to go out to her car in the parking lot to fill diapers with her own blood waiting to get sick enough for the doctors to finally be allowed to treat her.That is absolutely barbaric! AND THAT IS THE HORRIFIC SITUATION YOU SUPPORT!If it is the case that you do not support such barbaric contempt for human life, then tell us! If you oppose what those laws are doing, then tells us and convince us of your sincerity (sorry, but you have lied to us TO OUR FACE far too many times for us to make the mistake of believing anything you say).And if you support what those laws are doing, then own your inhumanity. And also cut the crap about "trying to save the unborn". Which makes you absolutely the only person talking about that. While we have been talking about the unnecessary death and suffering being inflicted on innocent women in the midst of a medical emergency.Jessica H. Christ! What the fuck is wrong with you? Pull your head out of your ass and learn to read the room! Fucking idiot!

Dwise, you stated:"A mother suffering a failed pregnancy is not asserting any
right to "kill her own baby", but rather is fighting for her life,
for her right to stay alive! *I* am advocating for her right to
receive the necessary medical treatment to save her life
YOU are demanding that she be denied that necessary
medical treatment such that she will DIE UNNECESSARILY!*** Stop lying. A failed pregnancy is not an abortion.Also, if a mother's life is seriously at stake I would u/s.I would have chosen the life of my wife over our child.However, this is seldom the case. The left like to push false
agendas.God is not a monster; He would understand the woman's
choice in this situation. He looks at our heart for why we
do certain things.But one cannot fake God out. If the risk was there, He
would know if they were lying or not.But the left doesn't care what reason the woman has. They
want all abortions to be legal.It is funny that everyone in favor of abortions has already
been born.​