Why are we so bad at this?

Christians have ALWAYS been casual about all forms of homicide. It's in your book and throughout your history.But to answer your specific inquiry, that’s easy.We don’t all agree with your religious views on the topic. Many of us do not attach any sacred status to the fetus. In a lot of secular societies, the fetus is another growth in the body whose disposition is to be determined by the mother. You priests have no say in the matter.There are a lot of compelling human-centered reasons to justify abortion. The mother’s health being a big one but we also account for the social and economic impact of birth upon the mother and family on a case-by-case basis. The final decision is the mother’s in consultation with her support group. It is not the decision of the priest in consultation with his fictitious spirit and the politicos he keeps on a leash.I would think the vast majority of abortions are sought for the economic and social benefit of the mother. The proposed mother is not ready to accept the responsibility and bear the costs of the child. A quick vacuum pump and problem solved. In a secular society, a society centered on the human condition, economic and social concerns are not just necessary elements in the decision process they are adequate, in and of themselves, to justify the action.I know you will have all kinds of horror stories about late-term, post-birth, slice ‘em ‘n dice ‘em abortion fictions but, except for your own ghoulish delights, don’t bring them up here. That is hype, not reality, and should have no part in this discussion.

In a world of 7 billion people, any particular horror Candle3 wants to imagine has probably happened somewhere, and these days someone likely took images. But just as we don't take all cars away because somebody somewhere caused an accident with multiple fatalities, we don't take abortions away just because somebody somewhere made a real botch of it.Another caution is that the images Candle3 is probably looking at may not be what they are purported to be. Many media outlets now have sections where they debunk fake claims. Most recently a picture of a woman standing still while holding a small American flag went viral with the claim that she had been imprisoned for January 6th. The actual picture was of a woman attending a protest far from Washington not on January 6th and not about the election, and of course she was never arrested charged or imprisoned. It was just a random image some fake news promoter used. Maybe Candle3 is looking at images of actual abortions, maybe he's not. Who could know these days. What we do know is that these days there's a big industry pushing fake information designed to get people riled up and not caring much about truth or accuracy.Getting back to the topic, how do you persuade Candle3 of your point of view? You've responded with persuasive sounding facts and arguments, but we know from long experience that that won't work.--Percy

You don't. If that was the goal then it was chosen by a jester. Fool's errand.These discussions are not for persuading Candle3, or any of the other candles, that their views need adjustment. Neither Dunning nor Kruger can help at this point. Reality just does not exist that far out into La-La land.We, each of us, battle the Evil Ones in this venue for the sacred hearts and innocent minds of the lurkers, the peanut gallery, the void with a million eyes. There, there may be minds on the verge of awareness. There, synapses about to close around a critical thought.We can only hope that in countering the Candle(s) in this world, without any hope of healing them, we can vaccinate others from the disease they carry and seek to spread.

Sunshine is the best disinfectant. Their own words are our best argument. If the inanity of uber fundamentalists isn't enough to persuade, I do doubt if there is anything we can say to sway them.

And yet there is the example of Trump's election as a counter. With all the sunlight of a G2 star, that inanity of uber corruption and blindingly stupid politics managed to get re-elected despite the intense spotlight.Seems we no longer can just point and laugh to make the point of "stupid". We need to rub their face in it.Taq, you are right. It all starts with the stupid on open display. But we need a backup plan. Lions in the Colosseum didn't work. Kinda like Lions in Ford Field but different.Education - the constant rubbing of the nostrils of the priests and the public in the excrement of religious delusions. There is so much stupid in this world. We didn't do enough education on Trump and our lack of vigilance has cost us big time. Religion should be more strongly, more publicly and more loudly ridiculed.I wish I had done more. I wish I could do more. I wish we all could do more.

AZ, you wrote:"Christians have ALWAYS been casual about all forms of
homicide. It's in your book and throughout your history."***No true Christian is casual about murder. If they say
they are, then they are not Christian."Thou shalt not murder."It is a sad fact that God's Prophets and Apostles were
murdered. They did nothing wrong.Matthew 24 states that in the latter day that Christians will
be hated by all nations.It states that Christians will be handed over to the authorities.We see how they were rounded up and thrown into the Roman
Colesiums.God has the right to judge. He has the right to take life. He
gives life and He takes life. I trust Him.Also, when God takes a life He can give it back.To kill one of these precious little ones, who is made in the
very image of God, is bad. God will demand justice for them.There are very few instances in which a baby must be killed
in order to spare the mother's life. Very few. And in the very
few instances that this might occur, the mother should pray
for God's help.I grew up poor; in fact, very poor. We ate one, sometimes two,
meals a day. We very seldom got a candy bar or a pop.The cafeteria in the school at Golden Pond, KY, was in the
basement, and one could smell it all day. But, my brothers,
sisters, and I did not have the money to eat with.I never wanted to be dead because of this.America has lost it's common sense, it's decency. The main
agenda on Harris's campaign was reproductive rights.Reproductive rights is a misnomer. It stands for the right of
women to kill their own offspring. Women already have the
right to reproduce.The right to kill their own was/is their primary goal. The
father does not have a say.The wicked will always makes excuses for their actions, and
they will always blame it on others.You have lost, if you ever had it, empathy.​

And yet you are!But not merely casual about murder. You insist on it! You revel in it! You are a blood-thirsty murderous monster.Why are you so zealous about killing women? About killing mothers? Why do you hate women so much that you want them to die after suffering horrifically for days?Because of your god? A bloodthirsty god who demands human sacrifice? The Jewish and Christian god gave up on human sacrifice, or so the Bible tells us. What evil god to you worship and serve? Most definitely not the Christian one.As far as I know, the Bible doesn't mention abortion except for one time, Numbers 5, where you are commanded to perform an abortion if you believe that the child your wife is carrying is not yours. It even tells you how to perform that abortion. That is the only actual mention of abortion in the Bible that I am aware of.The Bible's penalty for murder is death, even for manslaughter. But what is the penalty for causing the death of a fetus? You call it "murder" so shouldn't the penalty be the same? So why isn't it? The penalty is to pay a monetary fine to the father for loss of property. So the Bible says that the fetus is not a person, but rather just property.Who do you think you are to contradict the Bible? To claim that it says things that it clearly does not say? To put words in God's mouth? And who do you think you are to use the words you put in God's mouth in order to justify the torture killing of women on such a massive scale as to qualify as a crime against humanity?If you know of any prohibition of abortion in the Bible, please present it. DO NOT BOTHER US WITH RANDO IRRELEVENT PASSAGES THAT YOU REINTERPRET AND TWIST AND DISTORT TO PUT WORDS IN GOD'S MOUTH!! If you actually believed in God, then the last thing you would want to do would be to commit blasphemy by putting words in God's mouth! You are projecting your own utter lack of empathy.Seriously, why do you hate women so incredibly much?

Of course you are. You so casually accept the murders of the Exodus and Noah’s Flud myths (even knowing neither one happened). Here, this one is more complete: Actual Law ***He’s a fiction. I’m thinking that bitter-sweet bile taste for righteous revenge, that blood lust you are feeling for payback, for justice, that is all you, your heart, your mind. A god has nothing to do with it. You are quite emotional about it.You, I don’t trust. And you think this justifies forcing a 12 year-old rape victim to carry to term? Yep, Abortion rights like right out of the 60’s. Took you long enough to catch on. Correct. See this. The right to terminate any unwanted pregnancy. That is the goal. Rights to bodily autonomy that women have and fetuses with all their priests in a row, do not.Now, you’re going to have to spend extra time in the pulpit trying to wash out your eyes. I’m not sure if your cult of Christianity has holy water but maybe that would help. Oh I have the empathy. What I lack is the power to change 7 ½ million years of human evolution. We must deal with the human condition as it is. Humanism deals with the reality of the species, not a violently imposed religious program.Abortion is a useful tool for women in our society. When women decide how and when to construct their families those families are, I would argue, stronger, last longer, and are more important and instrumental to society than your typical Christian experience.*** Abortion in Arizona is legal up the point of fetal viability as a result of Arizona Proposition 139 recently passed.

Ideally, I would favor the Socratic Method:

quote:

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The Socratic method (also known as the method of Elenchus or Socratic debate) is a form of argumentative dialogue between individuals based on asking and answering questions. Socratic dialogues feature in many of the works of the ancient Greek philosopher Plato, where his teacher Socrates debates various philosophical issues with an "interlocutor" or "partner".

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In Plato's dialogue "Theaetetus", Socrates describes his method as a form of "midwifery" because it is employed to help his interlocutors develop their understanding in a way analogous to a child developing in the womb. The Socratic method begins with commonly held beliefs and scrutinizes them by way of questioning to determine their internal consistency and their coherence with other beliefs and so to bring everyone closer to the truth.

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In modified forms, it is employed today in a variety of pedagogical contexts.

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Hence I ask creationists (et alia) questions about their claims. That includes my constantly repeated question to Candle3 how his lies about radiocarbon dating are supposed to have anything to do with that dating method (particularly the trace amounts of recently generated C-14 in buried fossils). In that way, not only do I give them the chance to present their case, but I also open up the opportunity for a conversation and discussion.The problem is that that approach requires both parties to approach the discussion honestly. If one side refuses to engage honestly, then no discussion can take place despite all the other side's efforts. That is the problem of which you speak and that is the problem that I constantly encounter with creationists (especially).When I started studying creationism in 1981, I quickly discovered that every one of their claims I encountered was false and that most of them were based on ignorance of the science they claimed to be using. When I started discussing online, I assumed that, since Christians are supposed to be all about the Truth and all that, all I'd have to do was explain what they had gotten wrong and their inherent honesty would motivate them to correct their mistakes. Instead, I was met with extreme hostility. Indeed, I found that the surest way to infuriate a creationist was to take his claims seriously and to try to discuss them with him. Even just asking for more information about his claim was met with extreme vitriol.I came to realize that they literally just didn't know what they were talking about. That all they "knew" was what they had been told, which they memorized by rote in order to be able to repeat it verbatim, but they totally lacked the bare minimum understanding of the claim that they needed to be able to discuss it. So they lashed out in anger in order to cover up their abject ignorance and to kill my attempts at a discussion as quickly as possible.Other explanations can be that they are intent on attacking their imagined foe (ie, whatever nonsense they imagine "evolution" to be) believing that that is all it will take to "prove Creation", so they have no interest in discussion; analogous to that scene in Braveheart (1995):

Braveheart:

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Scots on the battlefield in their blue warpaint:

Hamish: Where are you going?
William Wallace: I'm going to pick a fight.
Hamish: Well, we didn't get dressed up for nothing.

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Yet other explanations include the sad fact that many of them are actively engaged in deception.So what to do when faced with an unwilling participant?In the spirit of Aggadah (a rabbinic approach to teaching through story-telling -- one of our lectures literally discussed the theory of telling a joke), here's an old joke:

The World's Smartest Mule:

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A man was sold what he was told was the world's smartest mule. The buyer even demonstrated that fact by giving the mule a complicated task to perform and it performed it. The seller's last instructions to the buyer was to remember to always treat the mule with kindness.

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The buyer took the mule home and told it to do something. And the mule just stood there. He repeated the command and still nothing. He tried other commands and to each command still nothing. The mule just stood there.

​

Angry, the buyer brought the mule back to the seller and told him what happened, or rather what didn't happen. The buyer thought for a moment and told the buyer to demonstrate the problem, so the buyer gave the mule a command and yet again the mule just stood there.

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So the seller picked up a 2-by-4 and with all his might struck the mule with it right between the eyes. After a while, the mule started to come to, shook its head, gathered its splayed-out legs back under itself, and stood there dazed. The seller then had the buyer repeat the command and the mule performed the commanded task.

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Shocked, the buyer said, "But you said I must always treat him with kindness." "Yes, that is true. But you also need to get his attention first."

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So all we are left with is trying to get their attention. Maybe we need a bigger two-by-four.

You can tell a child not to touch the stove all you want and they may still try to touch the hot stove every chance they get. At some point, you have to let them touch it. It may be the only way to learn that lesson.We are already starting to see women die from treatable conditions because of abortion bans. Instead of just the baby dying in a failed pregnancy, now both the mother and child are dying. It's barbaric. It's stupid. Unfortunately, this is a case of stupid touching the stove and the rest of us getting burned.

Turning this back toward the thread's topic, how would you persuade people of your views on abortion?--Percy

I would like to hear a response to that too.More specifically, how would you persuade me that my sister-in-law should not terminate a failing pregnancy and should instead die in order to not have a life saving abortion. How would you persuade my brother that his wife should die.

what about the right to not reproduce? or are women just walking incubators to you?

Dwise, you wrote:"But not merely casual about murder. You insist on it! You
revel in it! You are a blood-thirsty murderous monster."***I am the one who wants to protect the weakest among
us. You, on the other hand, are obsessed with the right of
mother's to kill their own babies (fetus-unborn offspring).In Exodus 21: 22-23. "If men fight, and hurt a woman with
child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yey no harm follows,
he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's
husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges
determine.But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life."God even demands that a life shall be taken for accidentally
killing an unborn baby.How much more must He detest the intentional killing of an
innocent little baby.A doctor standing over a pregnant woman and ripping her baby's
body apart. Then putting the dead baby in a bag and throwing
him/her into the trash receptacle.After the mother's water has bursted, doctors and nurses
have heard the baby screaming in pain. It has touched some
so profoundly that they have quit.The left like to choose those of us who are less fit to live, and
then us. It's called eugenics.And, I tell you something else: you have never seen where I
wrote that a woman is less fit to live than a man. One has as
much right to live than the other.More than 93% of abortions are committed by social factors.
Very few are due to risks to the mother.Even in the case of rape the rapist is not put to death. Why
would one one to kill the innocent baby because of this?You can take two babies and lay them side by side and it is
impossible to tell which one is the result of rape.Many women get pregnant for ignoring God's law against
fornication.I don't place all the blame on women. Men who pressure
women to kill their babies are also guilty.An unborn baby has it's own unique DNA. There is none other
like it in the world.I do not hate women. It is pathetic to insinuate that just
because i hate murder does not mean that I hate women.This is a straw man argument, and not a very good one.A woman can get forgiveness for killing her own baby, but
she must seek God's forgiveness, and she must turn from
this patheticEven if there were no God, I would still be against the taking
of innocent lives.You make it sound like atheists believe murder is okay. Is
this your premise?​

And if the mother's life is at risk, what then? What can you say to persuade me that abortions should not be performed to save the life of the mother? What is gained by both the child and mother dying? Many people worship idols. Should we throw them in jail or outlaw their religion? Why should your religious beliefs be forced onto non-Christians?