The War in Europe

Both international history and high school experience show the only thing to do with a violent bully is to punch him in the nose, hard.The Ukraine situation is NOT some Russian civil war. Ukraine is an independent state so guaranteed in international law as accepted by the world community in 1991.Phat, have you become a Russian Lie-bot? Stop with this bogus civil war crap.

It's not a civil war dipshit. Ukraine has been a sovereign nation since the fall of the USSR. The simple solution to end the killing is for russia to fuck off back to it's own borders.edit: I used to think you were smarter than Buzsaw/Faith/ICant but I see that I was wrong and you're just another sister-fucking-hillbilly.

You are an idiot.

Please, for your own sake, stop posting.--Percy

There are times where I wonder how anyone could fall for Russian propaganda, and then Phat proves me wrong.Just to help drive this into Phat's brain, Ukraine has been its own country for 33 years now. This isn't a civil war. This is an invasion of a sovereign nation by a foreign power.

Do we want Ukraine to win this war against Russia and to remain an independent country and a bulwark against Russian threats against eastern Europe? It sure doesn't seem like it. This, from Putin scrambles as Ukraine claims more territory inside Russia, says that we still restrict Ukraine from using US weapons for long-range strikes against Russia:

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Between the lines: For much of the war, the U.S. and other Western allies barred Ukraine from using the weapons they provided to carry out offensive strikes inside Russia, for fear of escalation.

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• In May, the U.S. and other Western allies reversed course, though the U.S. kept a restriction on long-range strikes in place. Previous Ukrainian strikes inside Russia had been carried out using Ukrainian-made weapons.

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We've required the far weaker country to fight with one hand tied behind its back, and we're still doing it. How do we expect Ukraine to win this war?--Percy

I think there can be little doubt that Russia has committed many attrocities during its invasion of Ukraine. Most of the ones we hear about involve attacks against civilians, resulting in many civilian deaths.Now that Ukraine has invaded Russia, small as the incursion is I think it as important that we strenuously oppose war crimes committed by Ukraine as much as by Russia. Ukraine must treat the Russian civilians under its control humanely, and there must be no attacks against civilian targets.I'm defining "civilian targets" very strictly. For example, a school is still a civilian target no matter how many Russian tanks and soldiers occupy it. A position of Russian soldiers holding civilians hostage as human shields is still a civilian target. It's wrong when Israel attacks such targets, and it would be just as wrong for Ukraine to attack such targets.I'm sure some will think I'm being naive or that this yields too much power to the Russians, but perhaps you'll agree with me simply because of the propaganda value to Russia of Ukrainian atrocities.Of course, whether Ukraine commits atrocities or not, Russia will still claim they did. We can only hope the news media brings the truth to light.If Ukraine does commit war crimes I would probably find myself in a bit of a dilemma. I support Ukraine because I believe in the sovereignty of independent states, that Russia's war against Ukraine has no justification whatsoever beyond Russia's illegitimate desire for land, influence and power, and that Ukraine is an essential buffer between Russia and Eastern Europe and ultimately for all of Europe and that losing Ukraine to Russia would be a serious blow to western security.Could I still support Ukraine if they began committing war crimes on a scale beyond isolated incidents? I don't think I'd have any choice but to continue my support for Ukraine, but I wouldn't be happy about it.--Percy

From Ukraine targets Moscow in biggest drone attack yet:

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Ukraine says it has a right to strike back deep into Russia, though Kyiv's Western backers have said they do not want a direct confrontation between Russia and the U.S.-led NATO military alliance.

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If the west does not provide Ukraine sufficient resources to expel the Russian invaders then Ukraine will, eventually, fall. Enforcing constraints on Ukraine, like not supporting Ukraine's ability to counterattack Russia, are Chamberlainesque recipe's for failure. I've probably said this several times already, but if Ukraine doesn't succeed (Moldova would fall with it) then Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania would find themselves on Russia's border. Hungary, an actual NATO country, is already halfway in Moscow's hands, and if Ukraine were to fall then Hungary would become just another Belarus-style Russian puppet state, with Romania, Slovakia and Poland tottering over soon after, and then Russian puppet states would be bordering Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia, Austria, Chechia, Germany, and the Baltic states.In other ways, the foundation of European security lies in a free and robust Ukraine. We have to make a stand there. Making a stand later will be much more difficult. And for those keeping track of such things, also much more expensive.--Percy