Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.

You really should not speak on subjects you know nothing about. You should but you won't.

At worst, you may call me an asshole like Trump, but let me state my case.
FACT: Israel was attacked. Isrel has a right to *defend* itself. Granted they overreacted severly, but Hamas knew that they would gain global sympathy by making the general population victims while they hid in the tunnels rather than fighting (and dying) like men. Netanyahu is a hawk and not a dove. He is perhaps not the best leader for Israel. Herr Trump "promises" to stop both wars, and Netanyahu might listen to him. Ive heard rumors that Jared Kushner plans on rebuilding something in Gaza (and profiting) but I have no facts to back that up.On the one hand, the current administration (that wanted to defund the police here in the US) claim that they had a rip-roaring economy the past 4 years, which was partially supported by our military-industrial complex that sold all of our old stuff to Ukraine (an unwinnable war) and to Israel both. Our young "educated" students by and large were supporters of Palestine yet had no idea how wars are.I won't claim anti-Semitism, but Trump's base is largely evangelical Christians who see through the political B.S. and tend to support Israel. Kamala Harris (one of the supporters of defunding the police) professes support for all of the victims of the world yet supports the very military-industrial complex that keeps our economy appearing strong. (Hint: It isn't. You all will see)I am not 100% sure I will vote for Mr.Trump because I have seen his B.S. before, but I dont want the bleeding-heart progressives to run this place for 4 more years because... regardless of which party wins this election, the United States is in for some very rough waters in the coming 4 years. And if we keep "printing money" to soothe the foreign and domestic wounds of humanity we will need a medic 4 years from now.Disclaimer: These are my words...not "some YouTube video"!

I have a few questions for you.1) Should the United States keep funding wars to bolster its economy?2) Do you seriously think that we are *not* going farther and farther into debt?3) If the economy is so great why are the numbers of homeless people exploding exponentially? I see them every day.One would think that you fix your own backyard before worrying about the neighbors.(though I think something needs to be done about Israel and Palestine.)

Off topic. If you want to discuss this post in an appropriate thread and explain relevance of the questions. You might want to answer some of the myriad of questions asked of you before you pose questions. Just an idea.

I'm going to try a different approach in replying to you this time. Instead of responding to what you say I will explore or inquire into why you said it. Given that I have never applied this appellation to either you or Trump, why do you say this? No one has ever argued that Israel or any country hasn't the right to defend itself. Whey do you say this? Israel is defending itself against Gaza in a way not all that dissimilar from how Russia is defending itself against Ukraine. Why do you fail to note that they are still overreacting while committing genocide and striking indiscriminately at civilians? Ya think? How do you tell the difference between a Trump promise that he intends to keep and that is within his power versus braggadocio and fodder for campaign rally attendees. Why do you mention something for which you have no facts? One fact we do have is that he *did* say back in March that Gaza's waterfront property could be very valuable, making it sound like he's waiting for Israel to empty the Gaza waterfront of Palestinians. Since no one in the current administration called for defunding the police, why did you say this? Do you think that "defund the police" is a literal call to disband police departments? Why did you not look this up before calling it out? What do you see when look at a chart of GDP growth for the past 10 years? What do you see when you look up the unemployment rate? Can you name any American administration that did not sell arms or offer aid in the form of arms to allies? Why do you think support for the Palestinian cause must be linked to informed knowledge of the horrors or war? What evidence leads you to believe that evangelical Christians are politically discerning politically? Have you considered whether evangelical support for Israel has any anti-Palestinian elements to it? Upon what evidence do you base this statement? Why are you questioning whether Kamala Harris actually supports those around the world who find themselves in difficult circumstances? Isn't this merely how most normal people would feel? Has anyone here argued that military spending is the reason our economy is strong? With similar economic numbers during their respective administrations, why was the economy strong under Trump, but only appears strong under Biden? Do you know the percent of GDP of military spending in the U.S.? Does fomenting insurrection count as B.S.? Why would you vote for someone who just said the next time you vote will be the last time? What evidence leads you to the conclusion that the current administration are "bleeding-heart progressives"? If "bleeding-heart" means "soft-hearted" which in turn means kind and compassionate, aren't those good Christian qualities? Do you want an administration that cares more about things than people? What in your history makes you believe you have any skills as a forward-looking prognosticator? What in your history makes you believe you have any skills in financial matters? Why do you think we don't believe you? Do you think it might be because you keep going off-topic and raising issues no one here has mentioned? You're not really listening to much of what anyone says here, so either you're responding to voices in your head or to YouTube videos. Likely both.--Percy

This thread is about the War in Gaza. Let me go back to the start of this topic and the questions you specifically asked and do my best to respond to them.
Message 133
You respond by challenging my analogy of giving the Indigenous people in America back some of their land, which would mean taking it from US citizens currently occupying it. Granted the situation is not remotely similar except that in both cases(Gaza and Israel vs United States vs Native populations) the land was claimed out from under the feet of the occupants.
I dont know if you are always on the side of the weaker country over support of the stronger country but Some hearts bleed with emotion while other hearts beat strong and proud. My point is that any discussion of either conflict (Gaza or Andrew Jackson et al) has a common component of genocide. Again, there is a commonality in that Genocide was the solution in both examples.I am no Historian so I cannot yet comment on why the Indians were slaughtered. Were it happening today, I would hope that the UN would step in, attempt to stop the genocide, and give the Indians a place to stay provided they quit fighting the dominant power (US expansion into the West) and agreed with the terms. The weaker people group is never given equal treatment in negotiations.Moving on... Special Committee on Decolonization Approves Resolution Calling upon United States to Promote Process for Puerto Rico’s Self-Determination, Eventual Independence | Meetings Coverage and Press ReleasesSo I am reading your link. A commonality in regards to our discussion is a UN resolution and the dominant power choosing to ignore it. Israel will likely never listen to the UN, but they will deal with whichever US president and/or defense secretary is in power at that moment. I guess that Netanyahu prefers Trump over anyone the Democrats have.On to your next question(s). This may take a while but I am resolved to try to do it.

Why do you think the motivation for funding foreign wars, Israel and Ukraine for example, is to bolster the economy? Who here has denied that the national debt has been growing for quite some time, and faster than GDP? If everyone were like you with a mother who left them a condo, how much homelessness do you think there would be? How many people in Denver can afford to buy a condo for the average price of about $400K (plus monthly condo fees) or rent an apartment for the average price of $1700/month?Side comment: I don't really understand homelessness. A relatively young woman has been holding a sign outside a local supermarket for the past few months that says she is homeless and has two young children to support. Meanwhile a restaurant across the street we went to a couple weeks ago said they've had to cut back hours because of lack of staff.The obvious conclusion is that this woman has discovered panhandling to be more lucrative than working, but even if that were true, she's just standing there for hours and hours at a time. That has to be very hard on the mind and body. I don't know what to think.There have always been people with mental disorders who will always be homeless no matter what unless they are institutionalized. Most of these institutions have been done away with, victims of cost-cutting, though I doubt they were ever run very decently on average. Anyway, mental disorders in people for whom no institutionalization is available is one source of homelessness.Lack of affordable housing is another source of homelessness. Housing prices vary widely across the country. The average home value in Denver is around $600,000, in Boston around a million, and in San Francisco around $1.4 million. The demand for workers is greatest in cities, but that's also where housing availability is the least.--Percy

It's no secret that I lean conservative... more so than the rest of you. After watching some of Trump's recent speeches, I tentatively conclude that he is not blatantly lying and that he understands global politics. The main point of contention between myself and EvC is that

none of you respect my intelligence

You wave off any information that I have to support my arguments

You keep telling me to "get help" which is gaslighting.

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One more fact about Herr Trump is that he has experienced bankruptcy and likely agrees with my assertion that the US is headed towards a financial reset. Time will tell if I am right on this point.

Percy writes:

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No one has ever argued that Israel or any country hasn't the right to defend itself. Whey do you say this? Israel is defending itself against Gaza in a way not all that dissimilar from how Russia is defending itself against Ukraine.
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One difference is that Israel is the recipient of money from the US while Russia has been sanctioned. Russia is essentially defending itself from the US Dollar and the military-industrial complex behind it.

Percy writes:

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Why do you fail to note that they are still overreacting while committing genocide and striking indiscriminately at civilians?
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I note this. Why do you weep over civilian deaths when Hamas places itself behind them? This is a war.
We both agree on the character of Netanyahu. He is a big part of the problem.

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Percy writes:

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Can you name any American administration that did not sell arms or offer aid in the form of arms to allies?

Probably not. The difference is that we (the US) were much stronger and in a better position to play global cop than we are now.

Percy writes:

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How do you tell the difference between a Trump promise that he intends to keep and that is within his power versus braggadocio and fodder for campaign rally attendees.

We all know Trump is a braggart. I believe that he not only expects to win this election but to have a mandate(majority) that will back up his plans. (Assuming he does what he says and stops both wars )

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Percy writes:

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Why do you think support for the Palestinian cause must be linked to informed knowledge of the horrors or war?

Some of us support Israel. At the same time we support Palestine. The cancer that needs to come out of the patient is Hamas. Hamas cannot play games with people's lives and continue to exist. Just as we got rid of ISIS we must get rid of Hamas. The patient will live, but the cancer may grow back.

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And that's another topic.

Percy writes:

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What evidence leads you to believe that evangelical Christians are politically discerning politically?

Politically discerning politically? I would only say that evangelicals are not stupid. They do disagree with much of what liberal moderates and progressives support. That too is a rabbit trail and off-topic.

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Percy writes:

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Have you considered whether evangelical support for Israel has any anti-Palestinian elements to it?
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It likely does to a degree, but not all evangelicals simply hate Islam. One of my best friends has family ties to Lebanon and is a proud Muslim. We agree on the similarities between both of our religions.

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All of us are guilty of generalizing groups of people.

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Islam is not the enemy. Hate is the enemy. Israel went beyond an eye for an eye. Their eye got poked out and they killed the entire body of Palestine. Perhaps they intended to save the patient by cutting out the cancer of Hamas. I have suggested to my Muslim friend that Hezbollah is a problem for Lebanon and not a solution. He only agrees because he lives in the United States and tends not to bite the hand that feeds him.

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Trump boasts that Iran is behind all of this. Evidence suggests that Iran funds Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis. Maybe that's where we need to go to eliminate the source of the infection.

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Or, as many of you would suggest we need to look to the behavior of both Israel and the United States.

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Percy writes:

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Why are you questioning whether Kamala Harris supports those around the world who find themselves in difficult circumstances? Isn't this merely how most normal people would feel?
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Yes, though I would argue that we need to fix our own house before helping the neighbor rebuild theirs. NATO can take care of itself. We owe Ukraine no support for joining NATO. We owe GAZA no resolve to end the war while the cancer(Hamas) still festers.

Percy writes:

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Does fomenting insurrection count as B.S.? Why would you vote for someone who just said the next time you vote will be the last time?

First off I see him as a bullshitter but not a Fascist. In fact, I see elements of authoritarianism in both political parties. One characteristic I share with Trump is that I will speak my mind without fear of getting cancelled or being racist or politically incorrect. Which might not be my best trait.

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Edited by Phat, .

How about linking to my responses so I can look at the context? Message 133 has nothing to do with this.
Also, I am not going to go back and rehash a year-old discussion. You skipped it then, so it is over.

You have not shown the ability to convers in an intelligent manner. If everyone thinks it is you, maybe it is not everyone else, maybe it is you.
You provide little to no information to support your "arguments".
You obviously need help. So in cult world bankruptcy is good? You do realize he did not suffer ill effects from bankruptcy? He used it to protect his assets. WTF does this mean? So you are pro-Russian? Not surprising. So we should only care about some civilians? How utterly christian of you. How is this relevant to the question asked?Ok you wore me out. I will let Percy take care of this. There you go. Embrace that racism.

Emphasizing the seriousness of rape homelessness by inappropriately personalizing the discussion shouldn't be done.

Not so. I'm a social liberal and a financial conservative. You're not a conservative but a wing nut with a tenuous hold on reality who has enormous difficulty managing his personal life. You are a snake oil salesman's best friend. You are unable to use facts to draw rational conclusions. You are often unable to tell fact from fiction. We're still correcting the same mistakes that you've been making for years. Where's the intelligence? You almost never offer evidence in support of your arguments. In fact, "almost never" is being too generous. Take this message I'm replying to, Message 398. Name one piece of evidence it contains. Making you think you're cognitively challenged, possibly as a symptom of diabetes, and in a dangerous place health-wise, again due to diabetes, would only be gaslighting were it not true. You may be in denial now, but a few years ago you were still sufficiently self-aware to realize something was wrong and even carried out a self-exile from the board to give you time to get right mentally. Why do you keep repeating this nonsense after its nonsensicality has been explained to you. The guy who screwed up multiple times (six) is the guy more likely to screw up again, not less. You are rarely right on any point. How does that answer the question? No one has ever argued that Israel or any country hasn't the right to defend itself. Why did you say that? That's a horrifying comment. What kind of a monster are you? That doesn't answer the question. How do you tell the difference between a Trump promise that he intends to keep and that is within his power versus braggadocio and fodder for campaign rally attendees? That doesn't answer the question. Why do you think support for the Palestinian cause must be linked to informed knowledge of the horrors or war? You just contradicted yourself. Which is it? Can evangelical Christians "see through the political B.S." (your words), or is "Politically discerning politically? " (also your words) a more accurate characterization? Congratulations on finally offering some accurate information. You almost always get the answer to the WWJD question wrong, and it's the same answer that most moral people would give. The correct answer is that you help those less fortunate than yourself. We're a member of NATO. What you're actually saying is that Europe can defend itself from threats without American help, just like they did in WWI and WWII. Oh, wait, they did need American help. This has been explained to you so many times. We need Ukraine more than they need us. Ukraine is the primary buffer between Russia and Europe. If Ukraine falls then Russia's borders would again butt up against Eastern Europe. Hungary is already sympathetic toward Russia. Were Ukraine to fall (and Moldova would fall, too) then Russia would border Romania, Hungary, Slovakia and Poland putting them under enormous political and military pressure. Authoritarian Russia would gain great power and influence. Your comments are again horrific. He fomented actual insurrection the last time he was in office, and you think he's just bullshitting when he says the next time you vote will be the last if he's elected? Care to explain your logic there? Really? Which party is taking away women's rights? Which party is taking away LBGTQ+ rights? Which party is banning books? Which party is making it more difficult to vote? Which party wants one religion to have preferential treatment by the state and for its religious book to be taught in public schools? Which party invaded the halls of Congress after the last election? Which party put together false slates of electors? Which party prefers an authoritarian figure at the head of government?The reason we don't respect your intelligence is evident throughout your post: it's because you rarely exhibit any. You just blurt out one thoughtless comment after another.Even if we don't respect your intelligence, we would very much like to treat you respectfully if you could just do the same and actually respond to what we say. Frankly, I think we've just all had enough of "see reply, ignore reply, respond with nonsense off top of head."--Percy

Russia isn't defending itself. it attacked Ukraine dipshit. yes let's let a strong man run rampant through Europe again, that worked out so well the last time.

Ukraine is no more our business than Alaska is Russia's business but you nerdy globalists can't see that! Putin is no more interested in Europe than he is in Alaska.So which is the fascist antichrist? Putin or Trump?

The looniness just doesn't end.The only one here talking about globalism is you. No one else here talks about globalism, and no one here is a globalist.I think you must have a mistaken idea of globalism. Globalism does not mean seeing the world in terms of interrelated and interdependent nations, which is how everyone here sees things. Globalism is the goal of transforming the world into a single political entity.Ukraine continuing as an independent nation is very much our business, because the security of Europe is dependent upon a free Ukraine, and because a free Europe is essential to the security of the United States. Also, we're a defender of democracy around the world. Putin is *very* interested in Europe. He wants to revive the Soviet empire and place Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, the former Yugoslavia, Moldova and Ukraine back under Soviet domination, as well the former Soviet republics of Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Kyrgyzstan. He also wants what the Soviet Union never attained, domination of all of Europe, and eventually of the world. Putin is an old style dictator in the style of Lenin and Stalin. What a meaningless question. There is no Antichrist. Putin is a dictator, and Trump is a wannabe dictator.--Percy