|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The disconnect between the bible, and its horrific actions versus the message | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Zucadragon writes: I could kinda understand it if it's humanity's wickedness that causes its own downfall, that we reached to high like Icarus flying towards the sun, and that all comes crashing down. But it's not that, God decided humanity was wicked, and so all get killed. What is the point here? The way that I was taught it *is* humanity's wickedness. The so-called chosen people were human also and thus not perfect...any more than are today's "Christians" or any other group of people. Assuming then that *all* humanity is potentially bad, The stories first have God vowing to wipe out the humanity that He created in the floodmythos...except for a remnant(one family) that He had chosen. So then it later goes from one family to one nation (Israel). The fact that God "blesses" Israel is not indicative of either their holiness or their wickedness. In my mind, God (as Creator) has every right to "bless" one person or everyone and is under no human moral judgment to be equal or fair about it as today's whiners seem to think would be "fair". The imperative is for humans to strive to be Holy rather than for God to be fair. Some apologists believe that surrender to Jesus empowers us to be Holy but at that point, we still have free will(in practice) and thus are judged by our own freedom. Atheists are under no more of a "death sentence" than are Christians or any other group. We become the decisions that *we*make... daily. And not everybody has a repentant heart or soul. Some of us think that we are in charge at all times. Which we are. This supports the contrarian assertion that we are what we do, not who we profess to be (as a special or chosen group, individual or nation).
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Zuca writes: Good point, which brings to mind the idea of (assuming there is a judge) How could you feel good in heaven, knowing that the ones you love, the ones you care about, are suffering eternally? I know I wouldn't be able to feel good in such a situationhuman individual choices as being reflective of their families' fate or their nation's fate. This would be relevant with or without GOD as an Omnipotent Judge. The issue is Responsibility. Perhaps if we shirk ours, we in effect have judged ourselves by our actions.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
AZ writes: Now you know better than that. The point is the afterlife. The point is to be qualified for communion with god.![]() The point is our behavior is this life. IF GOD exists, it would be folly to fight Him in the afterlife. We could follow your example and simply ignore all "gods". I would imagine that IF God exists, He would not simply banish the likes of you to hell for ignoring Him, but He likely would make you aware that His existence was not solely a product of your own mind. And if it turns out that you were right, it wouldn't matter anyway...except for the idea of who or what we would commune with or reject in the afterlife.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
My liberal Christian friend in Minnesota sent me this post about Jim Palmer and told me a bit of his story.
[ Very long quoted content that is available as a link has been hidden. It was available at so many places it was difficult choosing one. Link to Phat's quoted content: Is Religion a Rational Way to Seek Truth? --Admin ]Jim Palmer writes:
As you know, I once was an evangelical megachurch pastor and my pastoral career stretched over many years. Eventually, I could no longer teach Christian doctrine with a good conscience and realized this teaching was not truly changing people’s lives… and so I walked away from the whole enchilada.Below are 14 things that the misguided religious establishment doesn't want you to know. Speaking for myself and my personal experience, I was not able to see or admit these things to myself. I truly got into ministry initially because I wanted to make a difference and help people, and I relied upon the belief-system I learned as the proper framework to achieve this. It took a lot of post-religion reflection to see the ways this belief-system was hurting people. I offer the below list in hopes that you might disentangle yourself from harmful beliefs and attitudes impacting your life. 14 things the misguided religious establishment doesn’t want you to know: 1. Toxic religion is rooted in fear, especially fear about the afterlife. It leverages the false doctrine of hell to win converts and demand holiness. The fear of God's disapproval, rejection, abandonment and punishment is another hallmark of toxic religion. 2. Clergy have no innate authority. Holding a church leadership position or having a theological degree does not imbue a person with special divine authority or superiority. The terms "anointed", "called", or "chosen" or titles such as "pastor", "priest", "bishop", "elder", "evangelist" or "apostle" do not confer any innate authority on an individual or group. 3. We hold sacred what we are taught to hold sacred, which is why what is sacred to one community is not sacred to another. 4. The stories in our sacred books aren’t history, nor were they meant to be. The authors of these books weren’t historians but writers of historical fiction: they used history (or pseudo history) as a context or pretext for their own ideas. Reading sacred texts as history may yield some nuggets of the past, but the real gold is in seeing these stories as myth and parable, and trying to unpack the possible meanings these parables and myths may hold. 5. Prayer doesn’t work the way you think it does. You can’t bribe God, or change God’s mind through obedience, devotion, or groveling. The underlying theistic premises of prayer are untenable. 6. Anything you claim to know about God, even the notion that there is a God, is a projection of your psyche. What you say about God—who God is, what God cares about, who God rewards, and who God punishes—says nothing about God and everything about you. If you believe in an unconditionally loving God, you probably value unconditional love. If you believe in a God who divides people into chosen and not chosen, believers and infidels, saved and damned, high cast or low caste, etc. you are likely someone who divides people into in–groups and out–groups with you and your group as the quintessential in-group. God may or may not exist, but your idea of God mirrors yourself and your values. 7. Our species has no religion. People are born human and are slowly conditioned by narratives of race, religion, gender, nationality, etc. to be less than human. 8. Theology isn’t the free search for truth, but rather a defense of an already held position. Theology is really apologetics, explaining why a belief is true rather than seeking out the truth in and of itself. All theological reasoning is circular, inevitably “proving” the truth of its own presupposition. 9. Becoming more religious cannot save us. Religion is a human invention reflecting the best and worst of humanity; becoming more religious will simply allow us to perpetuate compassion and cruelty in the name of religion. Because religion always carries the danger of fanaticism, becoming more religious may only heighten the risk of us becoming more fanatical. 10. Becoming less religious cannot save us. In fact, being against religion can become it’s own fanaticism. Becoming less religious will simply force us to perpetuate compassion and cruelty in the name of something else. Secular societies that actively suppress religion have proven no more just or compassionate than religious societies that suppress secularism or free thought. This is because neither religion nor the lack of religion solely nullifies our human potential to act out of ego, greed, fear, hostility, and hatred. 11. A healthy religion is one that helps us own and integrate the shadow side of human nature for the good of person and planet, something few clergy are trained to do. Clergy are trained to promote the religion they represent. They are apologists not liberators. If you want to be more just, compassionate, and loving, you must do the personal work within yourself, and free yourself from the conditions that lock you into injustice, cruelty, and hate, and this means you have to free yourself from all your narratives, including those you call “religious.” 12. Religious leaders claims that their particular understanding and interpretation of their sacred books should be universally accepted. Religious leaders often say, “My authority is the Bible.” It would be more accurate for them to say, “My authority is what they taught me at seminary the Bible means.” People start with flawed or false presuppositions about what the Bible is, such as: the Bible was meant to present a coherent theology about God or is a piece of doctrinal exposition; the Bible is the inerrant, infallible and sole message/"Word" of God to the world; the Bible is a blueprint for daily living. Too often religious leaders make God about having "correct theology." There are a lot of unhappy, broken, hurting, suffering, depressed, lonely people in church with church-approved theology. 13. If your livelihood depends on the success of your church as an organization, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you will mostly define and reward Christianity as participation in church structures and programs. Christian living is mostly a decentralized reality or way of life, not a centralized or program-dependent phenomenon. Church attendance, tithing, membership, service, and devoted participation, become the hallmarks of Christian maturity. 14. You are capable of guiding your own spiritual path from the inside out and don't need to be told what to do. You naturally have the ability, capacity, tools and skills to guide and direct your life meaningfully, ethically and effectively. Through the use of your fundamental human faculties such as critical thinking, empathy, reason, conscience and intuition, you can capably lead your life. You have the choice to cultivate a spirituality that doesn’t require you to be inadequate, powerless, weak, and lacking, but one that empowers you toward strength, vitality, wholeness, and the fulfillment of your highest potentialities and possibilities. He shares a lot of views that you have tried to teach me (in vain) over the past 20 years. I don't disagree with all of what he says any more than I do you, but I have some reservations. Edited by Admin, : Replace long quoted content with a link.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
And when the reset happens and everything crashes just as Carlson, Glen Beck, and others have mentioned, you will blame a whole political party and ideology for upsetting the Apple cart when it was the progressives who wanted to push war in Ukraine to fund the military-industrial complex. It was the progressives who weaponized the dollar and arrogantly threatened the most populous nation on earth (China) The world is slowly beginning to de-dollarize, but you see it slowly happening if at all. One day reality will hit you. All that you can even really complain about is the Bush/Trump tax cuts. Even then, you don't have any explanation as to why the Debt(not deficit) is increasing by 4 trillion dollars a year. You are, however, in denial. It is easy to blame the CCoI. Perhaps we should examine how effective each candidate really was in their terms and what they had to face.
Im no fan of Trump, but if the senile old man tries to run again he will be thoroughly trounced. And though the progressives are ready for the women, the conservatives would go with the Felon.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Theo writes: Or better yet he can watch his diet, stand firmly on the Rock Of Ages, and watch the elitists who favor digital currencies and bitcoin lose a financial war with the East and suffer the responsibility of paying the bill while gnashing their teeth at the wealthy who skate off with the money once again. Or he can crawl back under his rock. It's easy to blame Trump but its harder to realize that you need intelligent candidates rather than simply progressive figureheads. Experts get paid. Amateurs Take Risks and study markets.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
nwr writes: From what I read, though there were obvious similarities, the spiritual outcomes and portrayals were quite different. The Noah story is a rather obvious copy of the Utnapishtim flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh.FROM: What the Babylonian Flood Stories Can and Cannot Teach Us About the Genesis Flood . It is not easy to compare the flood story in Genesis with that in the Gilgamesh Epic because they are told for different reasons and from different perspectives. In the Gilgamesh Epic the story of the flood is related as part of the tale of Gilgamesh’s quest for immortality. Utnapishtim tells his descendent, Gilgamesh, the story of the flood in order to tell Gilgamesh how he, Utnapishtim, became immortal; in so doing, he shows Gilgamesh that he cannot become immortal in the same way. (...)He relates how the god Ea instructed him to build an ark and to take on it the seed of all living things. Utnapishtim did so, informing the elders of his city that Enlil was angry with him, that he could no longer reside in the city and that he was going down to the deep to live with Ea. When the flood arrived Utnapishtim boarded the ship and battened it down. The deluge then brought such massive destruction that even the gods were frightened by it. In the Genesis story, One God (evidently the character in charge) commands the one family in which He saw hope to build the Ark and preserve the species. God was no more wicked than you or I...He foreknew that the other humans were reprobates beyond hope. As for the animals, one could say collateral damage. ![]() Note also... Although Enlil was at first still angry that his plan to destroy mankind had been thwarted, the rest of the gods were grateful that man had been saved, and Enlil thereupon rewarded Utnapishtim and his wife by making them like gods, giving them eternal life. In the Genesis stories, Humans were not ready for eternal life until they had learned more about God than they *knew* or felt about the serpents. The earlier mythos was more pantheistic yet oddly enough more human and thus plausible. I do think about where the characters are coming from and how strong their beliefs (and actions) are. I don't believe that every God mentioned in literature is simply invented by humans. however. I was earlier going to compare what Jim Palmer has stated to my own beliefs. I agree with Palmer that religion can be toxic and uses fear as a recruiting tactic.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
The threat is surely more than just religious beliefs.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Dr.Strangelove writes: No. All of the people gave up on themselves and the idea of God and spread nothing but war, greed, and envy. They became the decisions that they freely made. So did Noah's family. God said "fuck this, kill 'em all and let me sort it out afterward" he gave up on everybody but Noah's family. This whole idea of outrage towards a hypothetical "God character is so misguided. We become the decisions that we make and will reap what we sow. No Creator owes you anything. Grow up.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Tany writes: The God of the Bible is fulfilled in the character of Jesus Christ. Is Jesus a tyrant? Does He infringe on your precious freedom in any way? and the god of the bible is a bloody monstrous tyrant who claims to love us. Jesus owes no one anything except what He taught us to do. You elitists are so damn literal that you try and extrapolate a character out of the book as if everything in the book were made up. Which, if true, only puts you back in the group that thinks that no gods exist and that the whole book was made up! ![]() Now I suppose you will want more evidence. ![]() The Apostle to the atheists, our very own jar, suggests we all throw our preconceptions of God away and do what Jesus taught, expecting nothing and giving everything. Which is about the only teaching he has proposed that has no flaws or hidden motives...apart from this whole lame progressive idea that we have a mandate to lead the planet and be a people of common good. The point that is missing is whether we are capable of doing it. Get ready, Elitists. That antichrist Trump will probably win this election and you will have people to blame, like anyone who is a believer who refuses to throw Jesus away. But your opinions and beliefs are as irrelevant to me as mine are to you. None of you will ever believe what I say or take me seriously. And you wonder in awe why I don't respect your biased education. All I can say is stay tuned. We all will have to face the future together, but one thing I know is that the people will never have the power to get the rich to pay their fair share nor will you ever fully weaponize the justice system or the US Dollar. You might see that I knew what I was talking about in a year or two. Either way, I will never see eye to eye with most of you; in your mind, its my fault. I will be in the hospital for a few days so I hope to be back in a week with few complications.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
My Doc thought I had an infection plus he wanted to operate on a toe but there was no infection and I'm back home now. *Whew!*
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
jar writes: Too funny. The threat is your Willful Ignorance that was brainwashed into you by the CCoI.
How do I know that what you were taught is not itself cultural indoctrination? It sure seems to me that you were taught basically to not believe anything and to question everything not supported by (human-derived) facts and data. But you and I have been down this trail a brazillion times. Phat: Jesus died for my sins and has a plan to rescue humanity from collective willful ignorance. jar: Only the Christian Culture Of Ignorance is willfully ignorant. The rest of us are critically thinking skeptics and academicians more in touch with reality rather than fantasy. Phat: You are hopeless. Since you threw satan away along with God and Jesus, I cant explain why. jar: You and the CCoI are the greatest threat to world peace and stability that currently exists. Or are you going to complain that I misrepresented you yet again??!! ![]() You love to frame every issue in your own words. I do the same thing!
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2025