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Author Topic:   2024 US Presidential Election
Taq
Member
Posts: 10194
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 1052 of 1152 (918996)
06-12-2024 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1050 by jar
06-12-2024 11:31 AM


Re: My problem
jar writes:
Long long away and Far far ago, the two political parties were not monolithic, each party had a more liberal and more conservative voice as well as the much larger centralist body. Even the wings were a spectrum of positions rather than one voice. That led to a greater consensus/compromise process than what we see today.
The North/South divide over slavery and Reconstruction after the war probably played into that. It wasn't until the 1960's that the Southern Strategy could work. Before that point you couldn't convince Southern conservatives to join the party of Lincoln. The Civil Rights Act changed a lot. Nixon saw a chance that uniting the conservatives would work, and here we are today.
Compare this to party based parliamentary systems where you vote for a party instead of a candidate, and seats are given out based on the percentage of votes a party gets. These systems usually require a coalition government between two or more parties. In many cases, these governments were purposefully designed in this way within Europe in order to incorporate ethnic groups into a single government as new borders were drawn after the world wars. They did not use the US system for this same reason.
But to do that the very people that profit the most would have to be the ones to overturn Citizens United. It is possible and has happened in the past, votes for women was the result of all male legislators voting to expand the right.
Knowing what needs to be done and doing it are two different things, unfortunately. If there is one thing we know about human nature is that it is very hard to get people to act against their own self interest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1050 by jar, posted 06-12-2024 11:31 AM jar has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22689
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1053 of 1152 (918999)
06-12-2024 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1031 by LamarkNewAge
06-10-2024 2:41 PM


Re: some facts related to President Biden:
LamarkNewAge writes in Message 1031:
Biden's decision is PERMANENT.
It's pointless rebutting your errors because in your next message there will just be another pile of wrong information. PaulK already described how wrong you are on this one and I have nothing to add.
Trump's Title 42 only lasted a bit less than a year,...
Trump's invocation of Title 42 restricting immigration because of the covid pandemic lasted from April of 2020 until May of 2023 because the courts ruled that Biden couldn't end it by executive order, as I explained in Message 1016, to which you didn't reply. It lasted a little over three years. You're wrong by more than a factor of three. Do you never tire of being wrong?
Biden campaigned against it, and this was the reason I voted for Biden. Also, he said he can take in "millions more" legal immigrants per year than the one million - in a campaign stop. I quoted it here, at the time.
If you "quoted it here, at the time" then I can't find it. The closest I can find is from your Message 120 back in September of 2021:
quote:
Biden won by 4.4% and he said during the campaign we can take in 2 million more immigrants a year.
I think you're making things up again. I think you have a bunch of vague and inaccurate recollections floating around in your head that you keep repeating as if they were gospel.
Biden lied about just about everything.
Regarding Title 42, no, Biden did not lie. You are making things up again. Shortly after he rescinded the invocation of Title 42 by executive order, several Trump states challenged it in court, Biden lost, and the invocation of Title 42 continued until the covid emergency ended.
Percy:
Your inflation issue overlooks the actual situation. You seem obsessed with the headline inflation number. Voters are looking at alot more than the inflation of consumer products (excluding food and energy).
I never said anything that fits this characterization and I'm not even going to bother rebutting this. Your continuous stream of misrepresentation of what people say must stop. Please quote what people said that you're responding to. Provide supporting links for your claims. Cease lies like your Gaddafi claim.
You say Biden cannot do anything about prices.
Again, please quote what you're responding to. I did not say this. What I did was express my doubts that presidents have this kind of power.
I have also said on a number of occasions that I'm an independent and that I've found Biden disappointing on immigration. I find his recent moves on tariffs disappointing, too.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1031 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-10-2024 2:41 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1054 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-19-2024 10:05 AM Percy has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2496
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1054 of 1152 (919049)
06-19-2024 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1053 by Percy
06-12-2024 1:52 PM


Re: some facts related to President Biden:
Part of the problem with your comments is that you are governed by an outright disagreement with my issues.
Take NATO and Libya:
You disagree with my position so you make a big deal about my comment that Biden was "associated" with an administration that involved itself with the invasion of Libya. Libya used to - pre NATO invasion - give generous social benefits to black African immigrants, and it is understood - in Africa - that the thugs that killed the African Union Chairman were racist against blacks. All Libyans had free healthcare & got $50,000 for a house. African immigrants got generous treatment, too, pre 2011.
IMMIGRATION
Trump issued the Covid emergency MONTHS before Title 42 was invoked.
Biden did not campaign against the Covid emergency, but he was critical of Title 42 policies.
Biden appointed a CDC Director who stated - in April 2021 - that Title 42 ends with the end of the Covid emergency.
Biden did, in early 2022, issue an executive order to end Title 42.
It ended up in court, and judges initially said that Title 42 was connected with the emergency, per the policy in place.
Biden then, in September 2022, expanded Title 42 interpretation to unprecedented levels which saw additional tens of thousands of expulsions, which previously did not happen.
Then, Washington DC senior judge Emmett Sullivan said Title 42 border-turn-arounds/expulsions violated previous statutes (from 1950s), which requited asylum-seekers to not be expelled. He ordered the administration to end the policy. He also said that the Covid emergency excuse does not fit in with the timeline of Title 42, and the two should not be seen as connected.
The Biden administration was ordered to end Title 42, but time seems to have been given for a replacement policy to be put in place.
Biden never ended Title 42.
Look at the timeline between the Judge Emmett Sullivan order and the end of the Covid emergency. Count the days, weeks, MONTHS.
As for my comments about Biden's immigration promises:
See the thread 2020 Democratic Presidential Nomination Race
Post 166, on August 4 (I did not quote, but referenced something Biden said)
Post 232, around August 8-11, where I quoted Biden
quote:
We can take in millions more in a heartbeat
That is a close quote, but see my post.
Biden was screaming, in debates, that he would increase the legal immigration levels.
He was also seen as more pro free trade than Sanders.
Klobuchar and Castro, in an August 2019 ABC debate, said Trump's trade war with China was costing the average American $600 a year. Both talked about opposition to free trade w/ China hurting Americans purchasing power.
It is ironic that the $9,658 Chinese electric vehicles - in 2024 United States dollars - actually are costing an amount of United States currency that has inflated 22% since January 2021 (about 20% since Jan 2022).
The $9,658 Hatchback EV would, in inflation adjusted pricing, cost $7500 in 2020 - AFTER THE 2019 DEBATE!
HERE IS THE IRONY:
If Biden purchased 100 million vehicles for $966 billion, then it would - according to economic theory - weaken the dollar somewhat, BUT it would be so cheap - in a country with $30,000 minimum car prices - that consumers would literally be living in a NEW AGE type of new economic deal. An economic landscape never before seen, nor experienced.
Polls:
The most recent poll is an NBC/Marist poll.
Biden 49%
Trump 49%
Tied 49-49 among those under 45. Trump is up 50-49 among those 45 and older.
Whites vote:
Trump 55%
Biden 43%
Non-white vote:
Biden 58%
Trump 40%
(Previous NBC/Marist poll had Trump up 6 with whites, and Biden up 11 with non-whites)
If you want to know why Biden has done a total flip-flop on immigration policy (which is a policy position that has become as tragic as it is detrimental to desperate asylum seekers), then the answer is almost certainly due to the fact that Democrats only USED the immigration issue - last decade till the 2020 election - as a political utility to paint themselves as defenders of minorities, without believing in pro-immigration policy. Democrats feel like the political payoff was not generous enough, in fact they felt as if they were the owners, of the ethnic/racial minority's votes, who had something stolen from them. Democratic party feelings were hurt, so Biden decided to "fuck it", "fuck them". If minorities were not supporting him, then he no longer believes in immigration rights. Because he was "robbed" of votes he owned.
Biden sees the white liberal hippocrits, who oppose immigration rights - while pretending they don't - through the guise of opposing open borders, as he go-to vote group now.
I once asked an African American person what he though about the fact that public opinion polls show that 71% of white "liberals" oppose open borders.
He responded, "What right does a white Caucasian have to tell somebody that they can't come here?".
I said, "Exactly. It is disgusting, especially if they claim that they are defending immigrants".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by Percy, posted 06-12-2024 1:52 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1055 by Admin, posted 06-19-2024 4:13 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 1056 by Percy, posted 06-19-2024 4:40 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13084
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1055 of 1152 (919054)
06-19-2024 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by LamarkNewAge
06-19-2024 10:05 AM


Re: some facts related to President Biden:
From my Message 927:
Admin writes in Message 927:
Could you please compose messages of full sentences and paragraphs, provide links for the data you're citing, and quote the passages you're responding to?
I won't hold you to the "full sentences and paragraphs" portion, but you've done none of the other things. I've set your post rate limit to once per month.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-19-2024 10:05 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22689
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 1056 of 1152 (919056)
06-19-2024 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by LamarkNewAge
06-19-2024 10:05 AM


Re: some facts related to President Biden:
LamarkNewAge writes in Message 1054:
You disagree with my position so you make a big deal about my comment that Biden was "associated" with an administration that involved itself with the invasion of Libya.
I made a big deal about your dishonesty. The dishonesty continues as you still can't bring yourself to name the African leader, Muammar Gaddafi, instead referring him as the African Union Chairman. He did once hold that role for a year, but not at the time of the Arab Spring in 2011 when there was civil war in Libya in which NATO intervened to protect civilians. See Libyan Crisis (2011–present) - Wikipedia and 2011 military intervention in Libya - Wikipedia.
You've got real chutzpah trying to make Muammar Gaddafi out as the good guy. If Obama were running for president you'd be telling us what a great guy Osama bin Laden was and how terrible Obama was to have ordered the mission that resulted in his death.
You provide no supporting references or links for any of the other things you say in your post, so I won't respond further except to say I stand by what I said earlier.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-19-2024 10:05 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 1057 of 1152 (919091)
06-22-2024 11:58 PM


The reality is, you have 2 possible choices
This seems to sum up the Presidential possibilities about as well as possible:
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable." - John Kenneth Galbraith

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. - Paul Krugman (as stolen from Chiroptera's signature)

"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes" - Ronald Reagan (1984)

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


Replies to this message:
 Message 1064 by Parasomnium, posted 06-28-2024 7:19 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 1058 of 1152 (919095)
06-24-2024 9:24 PM


The reality is that there are only two choices for President;
a man convicted of criminal fraud, who has had to declare bankruptcy 7 times, was convicted of sexual abuse, has been convicted of defamation and convicted of repeatedly violating judicial orders and who is an utterly tasteless boor with still a long list of additional charges yet pending
or a man who was not ever charged much less convicted of criminal fraud, who has not had to declare bankruptcy 7 times or even 1 time, was not ever charged much less convicted of sexual abuse, was not ever charged much less convicted of defamation, was not ever charged much less convicted of repeatedly violating judicial orders and who is not an utterly tasteless boor and is without a long list of additional charges yet pending.

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8613
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1059 of 1152 (919125)
06-27-2024 11:30 PM


Disaster
That debate ... friggin Biden disaster. We're going to lose this election to Trump.
How does this happen? What the fuck has this society come to? Knowingly destroy its democracy for pompous snake oil? Knowingly! With malice and forethought.
There is a glitch in the matrix. Time to reset. Bring on the guillotines.

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion,”
-Daniel Dennett
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

Replies to this message:
 Message 1060 by Phat, posted 06-28-2024 2:32 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18443
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1060 of 1152 (919126)
06-28-2024 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1059 by AZPaul3
06-27-2024 11:30 PM


Re: Disaster
I saw two old men and one coherent one.
AZAuthoritarian writes:
Bring on the guillotines.
The only thing Republicans want to cut is taxes...not heads.
Biden basically exposed his mental incontinence.
I swore never to vote for Trump, but I cant vote for Biden either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1059 by AZPaul3, posted 06-27-2024 11:30 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9538
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1061 of 1152 (919127)
06-28-2024 2:47 AM


Please tell me it's not as bad as I'm hearing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1062 by Zucadragon, posted 06-28-2024 4:27 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1063 by AZPaul3, posted 06-28-2024 4:54 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 114
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1062 of 1152 (919128)
06-28-2024 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1061 by Tangle
06-28-2024 2:47 AM


It was pretty terrible. I mean, Trump just lies and lies and lies, it would've been an easy debate to win if Biden wasn't collapsing on the inside, mentally. Sure they said he had a cold, but it was not a good performance.
Technically he showed more substance than Trump, who couldn't stop from bragging about his previous presidency, simply lying about shit when he's challenged on anything... But that doesn't really matter when Biden a lot of the time, looked like he was breaking on the inside.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1061 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2024 2:47 AM Tangle has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8613
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1063 of 1152 (919129)
06-28-2024 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1061 by Tangle
06-28-2024 2:47 AM


Please tell me it's not as bad as I'm hearing.
Sorry, Tangle. No can do.

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion,”
-Daniel Dennett
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1061 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2024 2:47 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2225
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 1064 of 1152 (919131)
06-28-2024 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1057 by Minnemooseus
06-22-2024 11:58 PM


Re: The reality is, you have 2 possible choices
That's not fair! What have pigs ever done to deserve such a comparison?
But seriously, you Americans have got to get your act together if you want to avert a disastrous outcome of the election. Your democracy is at stake. And with it, the precarious stability of world politics. It's not great as it is right now, but if Trump is elected, we are all fucked, Americans and everyone else. I'd never have thought I would ever say this, but now may be the time to put that precious second amendment of yours to good use. And this time you could perhaps aim at somebody else than schoolchildren for a change...

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1057 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-22-2024 11:58 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1065 by Percy, posted 06-28-2024 7:42 AM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 1067 by Phat, posted 06-28-2024 8:10 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22689
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1065 of 1152 (919132)
06-28-2024 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1064 by Parasomnium
06-28-2024 7:19 AM


Re: The reality is, you have 2 possible choices
Parasomnium writes in Message 1064:
But seriously, you Americans have got to get your act together...
I've been borrowing the phrase, "This isn't who we are," a lot lately, but maybe, on average, this really is who we are.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1064 by Parasomnium, posted 06-28-2024 7:19 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22689
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1066 of 1152 (919134)
06-28-2024 8:03 AM


Calls For Replacing Joe Biden at the Top of the Ticket
I've only read one summary of Biden's debate performance so far, but apparently it was unambiguously disastrous. Trump teed up lie after lie that Biden should have hit a mile and instead shanked into the woods.
I see that there are already calls to replace Biden at the top of the ticket. For the same reasons that the Republicans couldn't replace primary winner Trump as the nominee in 2016, the Democrats cannot replace Biden unless he agrees to step down.
But who would take his place? Kamala Harris? Gavin Newsom? Gretchen Whitmer? I think not.
The only thing that can save us from a second Trump presidency is a sparkling performance from Biden in the next debate, which feels unlikely. I think what we saw last night is who is really is now.
--Percy

  
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