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Author Topic:   The Glorification and Worship of Torture
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 61 of 98 (918711)
05-19-2024 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Tanypteryx
05-18-2024 1:25 PM


Re: FYI
Tanypteryx, you wrote:
"Spouting crap from a bunch of bronze age goat herders
who wrote as if the whole planet was an area of only a
couple thousand square miles."

"Your ignorance is stunning!"
***You sure have some nerves. You complain about bronze
age goat herders, while stating that your ancestors several
generations back were breeding with chimps.
The sixth generation from Adam (Tubal-Cain) was
melting iron. Genesis 4:22. Tubal-Cain. Tubal-Cain was a
descendant of Cain.
After the global flood, Noah's descendants no longer had
iron to use for weapons. They were forced to make
weapons from rocks.
They made arrowheads, specs, needles, axes, scrappers,
etc, from obsidian, flint, and other material.
Archeologists looked at the arrowheads and such, and
with excitement, proclaimed that they were from primitives
who lived 100,000 years ago.
They got it wrong because they discounted what the Bible
had to say. That is not very scientific.
Now I suppose that several of you hard-core atheists will
complain to the administrator that I am off topic.
I am the only one on this forum to see things differently
than most everyone else. And, you wish to silence me.
If that is what it is to be, then that is what it is to be.
I have always stated that God is a loving God, who wants
everyone to know Him. But it will be at His pre-determined
time.
I have shown, from the Bible, that unrepentant sinners
will not burn in hell for eternity.
You talk about science having all the answers. The truth
is that science is very limited.
Tell me why there is anything at all, when without a
Creator, there should be nothing.
Tell me how consciousness began. Prove to me.
If you do not know the answers to these question,
then you actually know as little as first-graders.
I am not trying to be a smart-aleck, I am simply asking
for your proof.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-18-2024 1:25 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-19-2024 8:00 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 63 by Percy, posted 05-20-2024 8:07 AM candle2 has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 62 of 98 (918712)
05-19-2024 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by candle2
05-19-2024 5:33 PM


Re: FYI
candle2 writes in Message 61:
while stating that your ancestors several generations back were breeding with chimps.
You should be ashamed of yourself telling lies about me, right here in front of me.
I have never said anything about any species but chimps mating with chimps.
You are a liar.
candle2 writes in Message 61:
The sixth generation from Adam (Tubal-Cain) was melting iron. Genesis 4:22. Tubal-Cain. Tubal-Cain was a descendant of Cain.

After the global flood, Noah's descendants no longer had iron to use for weapons. They were forced to make weapons from rocks.

They made arrowheads, specs, needles, axes, scrappers, etc, from obsidian, flint, and other material.
You are just making stuff up that you cannot possibly have any knowledge of.
candle2 writes in Message 61:
Archeologists looked at the arrowheads and such, and with excitement, proclaimed that they were from primitives who lived 100,000 years ago.
I think you saw this in some crappy potboiler from the 1920s.
candle2 writes in Message 61:
They got it wrong because they discounted what the Bible had to say. That is not very scientific.
What is completely unscientific is making up crap about fictitious archeologists and the bible.
candle2 writes in Message 61:
I am the only one on this forum to see things differently than most everyone else. And, you wish to silence me.
It's simpler to ignore you.
candle2 writes in Message 61:
You talk about science having all the answers. The truth is that science is very limited.
You just keep telling blatant lies about me right to my face.
Science is a method for discovering how things work in this Universe, it is not a list of facts. Those are called data. No scientist claims science has all the answers about any subject.
The whole reason people become scientists is because we want to find out the answers to all the things we don't know yet.
candle2 writes in Message 61:
The truth is that science is very limited.
Compared to what there is still left to learn about the Universe this is very true, but luckily knowledge is cumulative!
candle2 writes in Message 61:
Tell me why there is anything at all, when without a Creator, there should be nothing.
I do not accept your premise about a creator being necessary.
candle2 writes in Message 61:
Tell me how consciousness began. Prove to me.
Science has no clear answer about that as far as I am aware. Prove "what" to you?
candle2 writes in Message 61:
If you do not know the answers to these question, then you actually know as little as first-graders.
So far, you have failed to demonstrate that you, or anyone else knows the answers to your questions.
candle2 writes in Message 61:
I am not trying to be a smart-aleck, I am simply asking for your proof.
No, what you are trying to be is a bald faced liar.
You lied about me saying things I never said or implied and that no scientist says or implies and then ask me to prove it!!!!
I made your lies large bold and yellow so everyone can see them clearly!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
If you are going to argue that evolution is false because it resembles your own beliefs then perhaps you should rethink your argument. - - Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by candle2, posted 05-19-2024 5:33 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22604
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 63 of 98 (918717)
05-20-2024 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by candle2
05-19-2024 5:33 PM


Re: FYI
I'm replying to this because of all the low hanging fruit.
candle2 writes in Message 61:
Tanypteryx writes in Message 59:
Spouting crap from a bunch of bronze age goat herders who wrote as if the whole planet was an area of only a couple thousand square miles.

Your ignorance is stunning!
You sure have some nerves. You complain about bronze age goat herders, while stating that your ancestors several generations back were breeding with chimps.
I think the only response to this is, "Your ignorance is still stunning," not to mention that you're exhibiting poor comprehension of what Tanypteryx said.
The sixth generation from Adam (Tubal-Cain) was melting iron. Genesis 4:22. Tubal-Cain. Tubal-Cain was a descendant of Cain.
The evidence strongly suggests that the Iron Age began thousands of years later, 1500 BC at the earliest. If you have other evidence please present it.
After the global flood, Noah's descendants no longer had iron to use for weapons. They were forced to make weapons from rocks.
There is no evidence of a global flood.
They made arrowheads, specs, needles, axes, scrappers, etc, from obsidian, flint, and other material.
Yes, up until the Bronze Age which began around 2000 BC.
Archeologists looked at the arrowheads and such, and with excitement, proclaimed that they were from primitives who lived 100,000 years ago.
It sounds like you've fallen for this absurd creationist claim.
They got it wrong because they discounted what the Bible had to say. That is not very scientific.
The strategy of, "Ridicule scientists for holding absurd opinions that they don't hold," is only likely to work on your fellow creationists.
Now I suppose that several of you hard-core atheists will complain to the administrator that I am off topic.
I usually have a pretty good feel for Admin's thinking, and I think he'd find little relationship between what you just wrote and The Glorification and Worship of Torture.
I am the only one on this forum to see things differently than most everyone else. And, you wish to silence me.
The goal, one of them, is to minimize off-topic distractions.
If that is what it is to be, then that is what it is to be.
Rule 2 of the Forum Guidelines has been around like forever. You agreed to follow the Forum Guidelines when you joined:
  1. Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
You talk about science having all the answers.
I've never heard anyone on the side of science say this. Only creationists say this. But science does have a pretty good handle on things like radiometric dating and deciphering geologic formations and provides a great many answers in these areas that creationists often take issue with. Is that what you're really talking about?
The truth is that science is very limited.
Limited in what sense?
Tell me why there is anything at all, when without a Creator, there should be nothing.
Why something instead of nothing is an ancient philosophical question.
Tell me how consciousness began. Prove to me.
I don't think science knows how to even define consciousness, let alone figure out how it began.
If you do not know the answers to these question, then you actually know as little as first-graders.
You'd lose that argument. Science may not know much about consciousness or what was before the Big Bang, but it does know a great deal about the brain and cosmology, something that isn't true of first-graders.
I am not trying to be a smart-aleck, I am simply asking for your proof.
You're falsely accusing us of making a claim we never made and then asking for proof when all science can ever offer is evidence strong enough to form a consensus.
​--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by candle2, posted 05-19-2024 5:33 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by candle2, posted 05-21-2024 8:16 AM Percy has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 64 of 98 (918744)
05-21-2024 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Percy
05-20-2024 8:07 AM


Re: FYI
Percy, you wrote:
"I usually have a pretty good feel for Admin's thinking,
and I think he'd find little relationship between what you
just wrote and The Glorification and Worship of Torture."
***I believe in law and order. But, it works best when it is
applied equally to everyone.
You, Dwise, Tanypteryx, ChapGPT, and others,are all
creating posts that have no relationship with the topic of
this thread.
Look at your own posts and tell me what they have to do
with "Glorification and worship of Torture."
If you believe in fairness, you would insist that the
Administrator limit you and your fellow atheists to one
post a day.
And, if the Administrator refuses to do so, you should
show us your integrity by doing it voluntarily.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Percy, posted 05-20-2024 8:07 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Percy, posted 05-21-2024 9:16 AM candle2 has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22604
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 65 of 98 (918745)
05-21-2024 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by candle2
05-21-2024 8:16 AM


Re: FYI
candle2 writes in Message 64:
If you believe in fairness, you would insist that the
Administrator limit you and your fellow atheists to one
post a day.
I'm not an atheist.
And, if the Administrator refuses to do so, you should
show us your integrity by doing it voluntarily.
Moderators are strongly discouraged from moderating a thread in which they're participating, so I usually just remind people of what's in the Forum Guidelines. I have no power here.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by candle2, posted 05-21-2024 8:16 AM candle2 has seen this message but not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 66 of 98 (918804)
05-23-2024 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by AZPaul3
04-13-2024 6:47 PM


Re: FYI
AZPaul, you wrote:
"I've been at this for a long time. I know your gutter
religion very well. With you as one of its priests I know
your cult is an ancient fantasy myth that has tortured
humanity for millennia. Like all religions yours is but
another death cult."
Have you even read any of my posts? I have always
stated that God has a purpose for each of us.
Through humans he is creating a family; a family if God
Beings. Each of us has the enormous potential to
become His son and daughter.
Some are being called during this present age. Those
still alive when Christ returns to set up His Kingdom will
be offered their opportunity at the time.
In the Great White Throne Judgement all the unsaved
dead (everyone who has ever lived) will be given their
opportunity at that time.
Those called during this present age will be resurrected
as sons of God when Christ returns. These individual will
rule with Christ during the 1000 years.
At that time the world will be filled with the knowledge of
God, and of what is expected from them. Jesus and His
Elect will be patient. And they will teach with love.
All those who convert during the 1000 years will then assist
with those coming up in the 2nd resurrection.
For the life of me, I cannot find any fault with His plan.
How can one possibly find fault with God, who is willing
to share His universe with us. And, who gives us eternal
life.
What do you find so evil about this?
Many people refuse to believe in God because they think
that He should be different than He is.
They cannot understand why a loving God would allow so
much evil, pain and suffering, to exist in the world.
God gives us the answers to these questions, but people
won't accept them.
A person who deeply loves God will never take pleasure
in the pain of others. Just the opposite, they would hurt
with them.
God loves those who are devoted to other religions. He
fully intends to open their eyes to the truth, and offer them
the opportunity to become members of His family.
If I believed that God showed partially, I would lose my love
and deep respect for Him. He must be fair to everyone.
If you have an issue with my religion, tell me exactly
what it is. You might find out that it is much different
than what you think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by AZPaul3, posted 04-13-2024 6:47 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by AZPaul3, posted 05-23-2024 11:31 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 68 by Zucadragon, posted 05-24-2024 2:28 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 69 by Percy, posted 05-24-2024 8:58 AM candle2 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 67 of 98 (918805)
05-23-2024 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by candle2
05-23-2024 7:52 PM


Re: FYI
Have you even read any of my posts? I have always
stated that God has a purpose for each of us.
Your posts mean nothing. You are a priest. You lie. Your god is a fiction, a fantasy with no reality. There is no purpose to existence other than that WE make in our own lives with our own minds. Your god, being non-existent, has no impact, purpose or meaning in this universe. It is YOUR purpose to foist this evil on humanity.
How can one possibly find fault with God, who is willing
to share His universe with us.
The fault is not with your non-existent ghost but with the evil fantasy you priests concoct to lie, move and control those who are too damn dumb to see the reality. The problem is with the power abuse, bloodlust, pain and evil suffering practiced by you priests.
What do you find so evil about this?
The blood. The death, suffering and pain your believers commit upon humanity at your command to further the inhumane goals of the warlords you choose to serve.
If you have an issue with my religion, tell me exactly
what it is.
First, show me this god you insist exists. Second, see all the above.

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion,”
-Daniel Dennett
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by candle2, posted 05-23-2024 7:52 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 91
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 68 of 98 (918806)
05-24-2024 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by candle2
05-23-2024 7:52 PM


Re: FYI
Candl2 writes:
A person who deeply loves God will never take pleasure
in the pain of others. Just the opposite, they would hurt
with them.
I have a particular problem with something like this, because there is no means with which you can decide if someone deeply loves God or not. Many a time in history has someone with religious beliefs done heinous things, only to be afterwards talked about by their religious community as not being a 'true Christian' or things like that.
It's all great to imagine a best case scenario where believers in God don't take pleasure in the pain of others. But you can only claim they don't do this AFTER someone does something bad, so what's the point?
It's like people claiming to know magic, it only works because you believe it, and if it doesn't work, you must not believe it enough.
You only deeply love God untill the moment that you do something that goes against that, and from that point, you're deemed as not having loved God at all.
So how does one determine if someone else deeply loves God? And how would you explain people that were deemed so in their religious community but ended up doing heinous things without resorting to "They never loved God"
How do you tell the difference beforehand?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by candle2, posted 05-23-2024 7:52 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22604
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 69 of 98 (918807)
05-24-2024 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by candle2
05-23-2024 7:52 PM


Re: FYI
candle2 writes in Message 66:
I have always stated that God has a purpose for each of us.
You don't know this. You're just preaching your religion at us. You can believe this on faith if you like, but the rest of us would like some evidence.
<...much preaching...>
For the life of me, I cannot find any fault with His plan.
Yeah right, it's perfect except for the part where it's fictional and doesn't accord with the real world.
What do you find so evil about this?
What do I find evil about making stuff up and lying to people about it? You have to ask?
Many people refuse to believe in God because they think that He should be different than He is.
I only know why I don't believe in your God: no evidence.
They cannot understand why a loving God would allow so much evil, pain and suffering, to exist in the world.
How do you tell the difference between a loving God who visits "evil, pain and suffering" on the world, and an evil, spiteful, vengeful, bloodthirsty God who visits "evil, pain and suffering" on the world.
God gives us the answers to these questions, but people won't accept them.
I only see you attempting nonsensical answers. God is nowhere in sight.
A person who deeply loves God will never take pleasure in the pain of others. Just the opposite, they would hurt with them.
I don't know about that. "Evil, pain and suffering" doesn't sound much like love.
He fully intends to open their eyes to the truth, and offer them the opportunity to become members of His family.
Except God isn't here. It isn't God claiming to tell us the truth, it's only you claiming you're telling us the truth, and you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
If I believed that God showed partially, I would lose my love and deep respect for Him. He must be fair to everyone.
Fair to everyone? Really? Explain how this is fair:
If you have an issue with my religion, tell me exactly what it is. You might find out that it is much different than what you think.
Over and over again, what you say tells us that your religion is exactly what we think: a pack of lies motivated mostly by a desire to appear to be doing good while achieving an unknowable status of eternal salvation.
People believe tons of things that aren't true. A third of the country believes voter fraud played a significant role in the 2020 election. Huge portions of the world believe in different forms of a fantasy being who cares for them while at the same time allowing terrible things to happen to them.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by candle2, posted 05-23-2024 7:52 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by candle2, posted 05-25-2024 3:06 PM Percy has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 70 of 98 (918810)
05-25-2024 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Percy
05-24-2024 8:58 AM


Re: FYI
Percy, the kid in the wheelchair looks bad. Kids and
grownups around the entire globe are suffering and
dieing.
When God made Adam and Eve He placed them in the
garden. They were to dress it and keep it.
They were allowed to eat fruit from every tree in the
garden, except for the tree of the knowledge of good
and evil. He promised them that eating from this tree
would bring death.
God was guiding them, and showing them the way to
true happiness, which only He knows.
When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they instantly
knew that they had disobeyed God. They hid from Him.
The tree in itself was harmless. By disobeying their
Father (God was their Father, they had non other) they
had brought sin upon themselves.
God was going to guide them until they obtained His
perfect character. But, they, from persuasion by Satan,
elected to decide for themselves what was good and
what is evil.
God is allowing humanity 6000 years to try every form
of government conceivable. Humans will learn that we
are utterly incapable of ruling ourselves.
Matthew 24 states that it gets so bad that if Jesus
delayed His coming any longer that all life on earth
would perish.
Adam failed in replacing Satan as ruler of this world.
Satan is still sitting on the throne. He has certain
parameters, but make no mistake, he is still the god
of this age.
God, has not given up on creating His Kingdom on this
earth. Satan cannot prevent that.
God had been calling out certain people down through
the ages. These people know with 100% certainly that
they have been called.
They have been baptized with the promise that if they
devote their lives to God and His cause that They will
be resurrected as spirit beings--sons of God, and rule
with Christ in His Kingdom.
God does not like it when anyone suffers and dies. But,
He has to let it happen.
We are to experience what life is like living under Satan's
way of "get." We will be able to compare this with God's
way of "give."
It is impossible to make an informed decision without
personally experiencing both ways.
Yes, it is awful when children suffer, and it is awful when
adults suffer. Life can be hard; i know from personal
experience.
Life in God's kingdom will be much different. In Isaiah 11
we find that on the kingdom of God that entire earth will
be filled with the knowledge of God.
As it was in creation week, the wolf and lamb shall dwell
together. The leopard shall lie down together. The calf and
lion shall eat together. The lion shall eat straw like the ox.
The nursing child shall play on the hole of the cobra, and
the weaned child shall put his hand in the vipers den.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all His Holy mountain.
I do not post this on this forum to convert anyone. I put it
here in case someone (who God has His eye on) reads it.
No one knows when God can come calling. They can pray
to Him. I need to know nothing.
They might not want me to post on this forum much longer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Percy, posted 05-24-2024 8:58 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 05-25-2024 3:21 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 72 by AZPaul3, posted 05-25-2024 5:29 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 73 by Theodoric, posted 05-25-2024 5:42 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 74 by Percy, posted 05-25-2024 5:57 PM candle2 has replied
 Message 76 by Omnivorous, posted 05-26-2024 7:55 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 71 of 98 (918811)
05-25-2024 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by candle2
05-25-2024 3:06 PM


Re: FYI
Brainless, indoctrinated, medieval drivel.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by candle2, posted 05-25-2024 3:06 PM candle2 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 72 of 98 (918812)
05-25-2024 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by candle2
05-25-2024 3:06 PM


Re: FYI
Yes, priest, we heard you 3500 years ago. You lied then and you're lying now.

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion,”
-Daniel Dennett
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by candle2, posted 05-25-2024 3:06 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 73 of 98 (918813)
05-25-2024 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by candle2
05-25-2024 3:06 PM


Re: FYI
You are a sociopath.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by candle2, posted 05-25-2024 3:06 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22604
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 74 of 98 (918814)
05-25-2024 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by candle2
05-25-2024 3:06 PM


Re: FYI
You have still offered no evidence for anything you say.
By the way, God lied:
Genesis 2:16-17:
16And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
But they didn't die, did they.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by candle2, posted 05-25-2024 3:06 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Theodoric, posted 05-25-2024 7:34 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 77 by candle2, posted 05-26-2024 7:16 PM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 75 of 98 (918815)
05-25-2024 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Percy
05-25-2024 5:57 PM


Re: FYI
Now we will get a ridiculous definition of die

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Percy, posted 05-25-2024 5:57 PM Percy has not replied

  
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