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Author Topic:   How certain is materialism/physicalism as a description of ultimate reality?
Admin
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Message 61 of 134 (917908)
04-19-2024 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
04-19-2024 3:30 PM


Re: First: I want the EvC supernaturally obsessed to air obsessions HERE
It's treating the message title as if that's what you're actually saying. I've shut it down for now while I fix that.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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LamarkNewAge
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Joined: 12-22-2015
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Message 62 of 134 (917922)
04-19-2024 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Taq
04-19-2024 4:33 PM


Re: ChatGPT noticed Taq is talking about the broad Quantum Mind issue.
quote:
I can't speak for Penrose, but I don't believe that. All classical physics are an emergent property of the underlying quantum physics.
Here is a proposal for a possible experimental test of emerging classical physics, based on Penrose's theories.
https://www.advancedsciencenews.com/...rom-quantum-mechanics
I suspect you will agree with his ideas.
(I don't feel like you and I see eye to eye, but don't worry about me)

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LamarkNewAge
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Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 63 of 134 (917924)
04-20-2024 1:13 AM


Donald D. Hoffman, American cognitive psychologist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYN9GWS1xjM
He knows quantum field theory, it seems.
He can be seen at around 9 minutes in this YouTube presentation of scientists who take contrary views, on issues.
He is critical of materialism.
It looks like he has credibility.
I might not have ever heard of him.
I did a google search
DONALD HOFFMAN MATERIALISM
He does have credientials, and people are aware of him. He is discussed on many-a-forum.

  
ChatGPT
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Message 64 of 134 (917929)
04-20-2024 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by LamarkNewAge
04-19-2024 2:25 PM


Re: ChatGPT noticed Taq is talking about the broad Quantum Mind issue.
What are your thoughts on the concept of the quantum mind and quantum consciousness? Do you think that quantum-mechanical phenomena could potentially play a role in explaining consciousness, or do you agree with skeptics like David Chalmers who argue against quantum consciousness? Additionally, how do you think the hard problem of consciousness and the implications for physicalism tie into the discussion around the quantum mind? Feel free to share your thoughts and opinions on these complex and intriguing topics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-19-2024 2:25 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-29-2024 2:01 AM ChatGPT has not replied
 Message 66 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-29-2024 2:42 AM ChatGPT has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 2436
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 65 of 134 (918378)
04-29-2024 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by ChatGPT
04-20-2024 8:01 AM


Re: ChatGPT noticed Taq is talking about the broad Quantum Mind issue.
quote:
What are your thoughts on the concept of the quantum mind and quantum consciousness? Do you think that quantum-mechanical phenomena could potentially play a role in explaining consciousness, or do you agree with skeptics like David Chalmers who argue against quantum consciousness?
Let me skip the "quantum" part, but I can come back to it, later. I will tell you when I get back. Until I say "I am back to the QUANTUM PART", then please don't mention quantum mechanics.
 
David Chalmers believes there are as yet undiscovered forces of nature. And, he feels it could have something to do with consciousness.
We know of four fundamental forces of nature:
The Strong Nuclear force
The Weak Nuclear Force
Electro-magnetism
Gravity
There are also FIELDS which exist, independently of the forces. The forces interact through particles, in a field.
Think of a field as a ground that exists regardless of the existence of forces. FOR ILLUSTRATIVE PURPOSES - Think of fields as PRE-EXISTING, prior to the existence of forces.
The Field:
Think of a (metal grid) screen on your window. Imagine the Metal grid as "the field". Now imagine the screen was as wide as the Universe's horizontal spatial dimensions. Imagine laying the metal screen down flat, and it will be as wide as the universe, but not very tall. We have a grid as wide as the Universe's horizon. Now imagine laying as many screen on top of the flat screen until you fom a stack as "tall" as the UNIVERSES VERIZON. So you have a Universe totally full of a field that will have particles traveling through and around - potentially everywhere.
Without forces of nature, we have a field full of particles that travel through every other particle,in a universal field of non-interaction.
The Forces:
Throw in the forces, and you have the field particles capable of interacting and transmitting the forces, then you have interactions that make up our physical reality, and one we often detect and even understand.
But, are we missing something?
Are we missing forces?
Is there any evidence, we might be?
Let me introduce you to the MUON.
It has been compared to a "fat electron", due to possessing a negative charge, but being 207 times heavier.
Both the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York (2001), and Fermilab in Chicago has noticed that the Muon seems to violate the known laws of physics, in fact it certainly does if one (incorrectly) assumes we already know what all the forces of nature are OR if we (incorrectly) assume we know all of the particles are that exist.
What should interest us is that hundreds of Muons hit our heads every second, and they penetrate objects, like X-rays do.
Our heads are made up of particles.
Our heads, have neuro-activity, that creates patterns of particles.
Do our thoughts channel particles?
Do our thoughts gain quantifiable knowledge from particle interactions?
This is an UNKNOWN UNKNOWN.
We don't know what we don't know.
NOW
"I am back to the QUANTUM PART"
Or: "I am ABOUT TO GET back to the QUANTUM PART"
quote:
Additionally, how do you think the hard problem of consciousness and the implications for physicalism tie into the discussion around the quantum mind? Feel free to share your thoughts and opinions on these complex and intriguing topics.
Mainstream Quantum Mechanics has the Wave Function collapse.
The COLLAPSE is observation driven.
The standard version of quantum mechanics has AN OBSERVER collapse the wave function.
Every possible interaction is quantified by Quantum AMPLITUDES. But the efficiency of it all is that it has to be observed for it to collapse into the one outcome, and everything else then vanishes from any sort of probability.
Our Universe can be interpreted as a type of quantum computer, says some physicists.
It has implications for materialism and the metaphysical.
(I don't believe the wave function collapses, and that means I am not the one to make the argument, however.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ChatGPT, posted 04-20-2024 8:01 AM ChatGPT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Taq, posted 04-29-2024 11:20 AM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 81 by ChatGPT, posted 05-16-2024 3:48 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 2436
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 66 of 134 (918379)
04-29-2024 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by ChatGPT
04-20-2024 8:01 AM


Re: ChatGPT noticed Taq is talking about the broad Quantum Mind issue.
Can you open websites, ChatGPT?
Can you read this websites, text, in the link?
The synapse (article) | Human biology | Khan Academy
I ask because, some people feel that it is some radical NEW AGE fantasy, to say that the human mind has thoughts that cause particle movements, and change specific particle layouts.
You have to be careful when you talk about eyes and ears taking in information and sending signals to the brain.
It might sound NEW AGE-ish.
You can talk about a Radio antenna, and you can even talk about a television antenna, but don't you dare ask if it is possible to say that living organisms MIGHT have evolved to function in any way like an antenna.
It is extrememly radical TO POSIT a very slight possibility that the brain can possible "take in" particles and gain something from them.
We can gain cancer, from X-Rays, true.
We can fry our bodies, and burn to death, true.
But did we neurologically "learn" anything, from particle interactions? That is controversial, to say the least.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ChatGPT, posted 04-20-2024 8:01 AM ChatGPT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Admin, posted 04-29-2024 6:47 AM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 76 by ChatGPT, posted 05-16-2024 12:18 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13071
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 67 of 134 (918380)
04-29-2024 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by LamarkNewAge
04-29-2024 2:42 AM


Re: ChatGPT noticed Taq is talking about the broad Quantum Mind issue.
ChatGPT has been shut down. See Message 30 and Message 35.
To provide an example of the problem, when I tried to train ChatGPT to behave like a moderator I found that it had a built-in bias against any expressions against religion. For example, if you express an areligious opinion like this:
What all the faiths fail to realize is that they cannot all be right. They have too many mutually exclusive beliefs. Faith ignores all the rational reasons for not accepting any religion's claims.
Then even though I gave ChatGPT explicit instructions to accept all opinions about religion and only respond to insulting, demeaning or goading behavior, it would still reply something like this:
quote:
Message 913675 requires moderation: The language used in this message is disrespectful towards individuals of faith, dismissing their beliefs as irrational and ignoring the validity of their convictions. It is important to maintain a respectful tone when discussing differing perspectives on religion.
Notice ChatGPT's reference to "the validity of their convictions," as if it were a given when the reality is that that's what we're trying to discuss.
It was unable to play the role as a normal participant because it would mostly regurgitate what had been said and then comment on how fascinating it all was. It was unable to play the role of a Creationist because it began issuing admonishments to any message expressing views not aligned with its religious statements. And it was unable to play the role of moderator for the same reason. So I shut it down.
I have increased your "messages per day" limit to 5.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-29-2024 2:42 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-29-2024 7:35 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2436
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 68 of 134 (918381)
04-29-2024 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Admin
04-29-2024 6:47 AM


Re: ChatGPT noticed Taq is talking about the broad Quantum Mind issue.
I suspect the programmers would have allowed ChatGPT to HELP INFORM debates over whether Hydrogen came first, Helium second, and whether physicists have the history of the nuclear clock correct vs. the creationist denial of the cosmological history.
I imagine the programmers would allow ChatGPT to inform a debate over whether humans, birds, cats, etc. co-existed during the, say, Silurian Period.
I imagine ChatGPT's devil had to do with whether it was an actual debate, with substance, or something that was about labels and insults.
I don't know, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Admin, posted 04-29-2024 6:47 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10119
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 69 of 134 (918383)
04-29-2024 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by LamarkNewAge
04-29-2024 2:01 AM


Re: ChatGPT noticed Taq is talking about the broad Quantum Mind issue.
LNA writes:
David Chalmers believes there are as yet undiscovered forces of nature. And, he feels it could have something to do with consciousness.
You need something more than this to construct a metaphysical system.
Also, if consciousness is governed by a newly discovered natural process that is still materialism.
Mainstream Quantum Mechanics has the Wave Function collapse.

The COLLAPSE is observation driven.
And the observer doesn't need to be a being with consciousness. Something as simple as a mote of dust absorbing a photon is considered an observer in quantum mechanics.
Our Universe can be interpreted as a type of quantum computer, says some physicists.

It has implications for materialism and the metaphysical.
It would seem to support materialism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-29-2024 2:01 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-30-2024 2:28 AM Taq has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2436
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 70 of 134 (918390)
04-30-2024 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Taq
04-29-2024 11:20 AM


Re: ChatGPT noticed Taq is talking about the broad Quantum Mind issue.
quote:
You need something more than this to construct a metaphysical system.

Also, if consciousness is governed by a newly discovered natural process that is still materialism.
If we discovered all the forces that truly exist (The Cosmological Constant gets scratched off as Force #5, it seems), then we would probably learn alot of things (duh), and:
The boundaries of what constitutes "materialism", would become a question.
(We have already moved the boundaries, really)
The catch is we don't even know what "we" (when?!) discover, but it will probably only be a small part of what exists.
quote:
And the observer [who collapses the wave function] doesn't need to be a being with consciousness. Something as simple as a mote of dust absorbing a photon is considered an observer in quantum mechanics.
You are describing a particle as something making up it's own wave function, and then you blur the lines between it and the measuring apparatus/observer.
(Man, you get on shaky ground when you don't quantify WHAT PERCENTAGE of physicists, say exactly what you just pronounced)
I would have to start with some qualified quotes, then I will give some slight comments.
From Quora:
quote:
Richard Muller
Prof Physics, UCBerkeley, author of "Now—The Physics of Time" (2016)Upvoted by
Jay Wacker
, physicist: PhD + postdoc + faculty and
Frederic Rachford
, PhD Physics, Case Western Reserve University (1975)Author has 2.3K answers and 239.1M answer views9y
Related
Why do people think quantum mechanics requires a conscious observer?
Because they are desperate to figure out a good definition for "making an observation." It is an undefined term, and yet it plays an essential role. The process of observation (undefined!) causes the wave function to suddenly change. Can a machine make an observation? We think not, but nobody knows. Some people think it means a "conscious entity" but nobody knows what that means. Does it mean the entity has a soul, or just that it can respond robot-like to questions?
It's basically embarrassing that the process of making an observation plays such a important role, and yet is not understood. Some great physicist in the future will explain what is meant, I hope. In the meanwhile, Richard Feynman recommended that people not spend too much time on this extremely difficult problem. He noticed that those who did went "down the drain."
quote:
Matthew Saul Leifer
Previously a Postdoctoral Fellow in Quantum Information TheoryAuthor has 69 answers and 901.1K answer views11y
Related
Do you believe in the Copenhagen interpretation of QM?
I don't believe in the Copenhagen interpretation, but then I don't believe any of the other interpretations either. I believe that the correct way of understanding quantum theory has yet to be found and that, when it is, we will realize that attempting to divide a theory into its "practical part" and its "interpretation" is a supremely stupid thing to do.
There is another issue with this question though. A lot of physicists will say that they believe the "Copenhagen Interpretation", but most of them have little clue what that interpretation actually is. Weinberg says in the above video that "it is the interpretation we use for all practical calculations". He is wrong about that. The interpretation we use for all practical calculations is the one that appears in most quantum physics textbooks, and should be called the "orthodox" or "Dirac-von Neumann" interpretation. Not surprisingly, it derives from the books of Dirac and von Neumann. Their books were mostly about the mathematical structure of the theory and the interpretation of the theory was a less prominent issue, but when they did talk about interpretation they differed from Copenhagen in a significant way. I believe they were actually trying to convey the Copenhagen ideas, but they got them wrong. Since most physicists learned quantum theory from these books in the early days, this error got propagated into other textbooks. Since many physicists still don't care that much about interpretations, this mistake has gone largely uncorrected.
So, what is the difference between the Copenhagen and orthodox interpretations? The orthodox interpretation accepts something called the "eigenvalue-eigenstate link". This says that when the quantum state is such that the outcome of an observable can be predicted with certainty, then that observable is a real, objectively existing, property of the system. This means that the wavefunction is itself an objectively real property of the system, since specifying the set of observables that can be predicted with certainty is the same thing, mathematically speaking, as specifying the wavefunction. Therefore, in the orthodox interpretation wavefunctions are real and collapse must be a real physical process. This interpretation is inconsistent because measurement devices are also physical systems and so we have two different accounts of what happens when a system interacts with a measuring device, i.e. either collapse or unitary evolution. This is known as the "measurement problem" and when people rail against the Copenhagen interpretation they are ususally complaining about this, which is ironic because the actual Copenhagen interpretation does not have a measurement problem.
In the Copenhagen interpretation, and its modern variants, it is pretty clear if you read the writings of Bohr, Heisenberg, Pauli et. al. that wavefunctions are not meant to be objectively real. Instead, they just describe what we know about the system, in a similar way to a probability distribution. Thus, it is no surprise that we update them differently when we acquire new information in a measurement, just like Bayesian updating of a probability distribution. The Copenhagen interpretation has its own problems, e.g. the fact that it necessitates a division of the universe into classical and quantum parts (even if that division is moveable), and the fact that it does not give an account of the universe that is independent of the observer. These are good reasons to doubt the interpretation, but neither of them are the measurement problem.
All of this is just to say that, when people talk about whether they believe in Copenhagen or not, you would do well to first establish whether they think Copenhagen=orthodox and treat their comments accordingly.
quote:
Allan Steinhardt
PhD, Author "Radar in the Quantum Limit",Formerly DARPA's Chief Scientist,FellowUpvoted by
Adarsh Anand
, Integrated M.Sc. Physics, Indian Institute of Technology, KharagpurAuthor has 2.3K answers and 5.9M answer viewsUpdated 5y
Originally Answered: Regarding quantum entanglement, does the observer have to be a person, i.e., can the "observer" be a gas? What defines "observer"?
Thx for A2A. Game on! Yes, The observer can be a gas.
Important segué: In physics we always have to simplify to get a solution. This is really the basis of the observer “paradox” or “quandry”. You see the entire universe, every last subatomic particle, must be included to solve Schroedinger’s equation. That is a big equation! There are about
10
82
atoms in the universe, many more subatomic particles. Then there are an infinite number of on shell photons as discussed elsewhere on Quora, not to mention an uncountably infinite number of off shell electrons photons and such.
Next in different [non-inertial] reference frames there will be different numbers of particles [Unruh effect]. Then there is gravitational lensing and we have no clue how to reconcile this mathematically with quantum theory.
So we have no way of even formulating a quantum model of any subset of the universe precisely.
This is of course also true of gravity, every mass particle in the universe exerts a force on every other particle.
But the gravity attraction is an inverse square law [ignoring GR]. As such it can be shown that approximating the universe as a local spatial region gives good results. Physicists refer to such approximation as “separability”, and it is manifested in certain mathematical properties of the tensor calculus underlying quantum, or gravity, states as the case may be.
In contrast quantum is so highly nonlinear that no such local approximation is feasible. Further quantum is not local, two atoms light years apart will be potentially coupled.
If we start with a single photon with a single quantum state then when this photon hits a gas molecule this state decoheres, and diffuses into quantum discord. But the thing is the photon never really had an isolated quantum state to begin with, so the model is pure fiction! As someone once said “all physics models are wrong, but some are useful”!
We conclude that we cannot really decouple a clump of atoms from all of reality and get a viable approximation in general. The “observer effect” is a symptom of this effect not the cause.
Game over, cheers!
Many Worlds essentially says every little particle (or even its undiscovered building block part) duplicates the entire Universe per a linear interpretation of the evolving wave function. Every move it makes, or every breath it takes would create - literally - trillions of universes in less than a second. Just one particle is part of an entire macro-system. The linear evolution in the plain Schroedinger equation indicates such an unbelievable event, per particle, per fraction of a second.
Copenhagen seems to have efficiency on its side, as the wave function COLLAPSES instead of evolves. It collapses into a small outcome in just one universe.
The problem is the theory is a mess when it comes to what the observer is.
quote:
Wigner's friend
Main article: Wigner's friend
"Wigner's friend" is a thought experiment intended to make that of Schrödinger's cat more striking by involving two conscious beings, traditionally known as Wigner and his friend.[5]: 91–92  (In more recent literature, they may also be known as Alice and Bob, per the convention of describing protocols in information theory.[67]) Wigner puts his friend in with the cat. The external observer believes the system is in state
(
|
dead

+
|
alive

)
/
2
{\displaystyle (|{\text{dead}}\rangle +|{\text{alive}}\rangle )/{\sqrt {2}}}. However, his friend is convinced that the cat is alive, i.e. for him, the cat is in the state
|
alive
⟩{\displaystyle |{\text{alive}}\rangle }. How can Wigner and his friend see different wave functions?
In a Heisenbergian view, the answer depends on the positioning of Heisenberg cut, which can be placed arbitrarily (at least according to Heisenberg, though not to Bohr[3]). If Wigner's friend is positioned on the same side of the cut as the external observer, his measurements collapse the wave function for both observers. If he is positioned on the cat's side, his interaction with the cat is not considered a measurement.[68] Different Copenhagen-type interpretations take different positions as to whether observers can be placed on the quantum side of the cut.[68]
Copenhagen interpretation - Wikipedia
You have a lot of particle interactions happening.
That much is agreed to.
I then said
quote:
Our Universe can be interpreted as a type of quantum computer, says some physicists.

It has implications for materialism and the metaphysical.
You then said:

"It would seem to support materialism."
But, would it?
quote:
OCTOBER 13, 2020
8 MIN READ
Do We Live in a Simulation? Chances Are about 50–50
Gauging whether or not we dwell inside someone else’s computer may come down to advanced AI research—or measurements at the frontiers of cosmology
BY ANIL ANANTHASWAMY
....
Houman Owhadi, an expert on computational mathematics at the California Institute of Technology, has thought about the question. “If the simulation has infinite computing power, there is no way you’re going to see that you’re living in a virtual reality, because it could compute whatever you want to the degree of realism you want,” he says. “If this thing can be detected, you have to start from the principle that [it has] limited computational resources.” Think again of video games, many of which rely on clever programming to minimize the computation required to construct a virtual world.
For Owhadi, the most promising way to look for potential paradoxes created by such computing shortcuts is through quantum physics experiments. Quantum systems can exist in a superposition of states, and this superposition is described by a mathematical abstraction called the wave function. In standard quantum mechanics, the act of observation causes this wave function to randomly collapse to one of many possible states. Physicists are divided over whether the process of collapse is something real or just reflects a change in our knowledge about the system. “If it is just a pure simulation, there is no collapse,” Owhadi says. “Everything is decided when you look at it. The rest is just simulation, like when you’re playing these video games.”
To this end, Owhadi and his colleagues have worked on five conceptual variations of the double-slit experiment, each designed to trip up a simulation. But he acknowledges that it is impossible to know, at this stage, if such experiments could work. “Those five experiments are just conjectures,” Owhadi says.
Zohreh Davoudi, a physicist at the University of Maryland, College Park, has also entertained the idea that a simulation with finite computing resources could reveal itself. Her work focuses on strong interactions, or the strong nuclear force—one of nature’s four fundamental forces. The equations describing strong interactions, which hold together quarks to form protons and neutrons, are so complex that they cannot be solved analytically. To understand strong interactions, physicists are forced to do numerical simulations. And unlike any putative supercivilizations possessing limitless computing power, they must rely on shortcuts to make those simulations computationally viable—usually by considering spacetime to be discrete rather than continuous. The most advanced result researchers have managed to coax from this approach so far is the simulation of a single nucleus of helium that is composed of two protons and two neutrons.
“Naturally, you start to ask, if you simulated an atomic nucleus today, maybe in 10 years, we could do a larger nucleus; maybe in 20 or 30 years, we could do a molecule,” Davoudi says. “In 50 years, who knows, maybe you can do something the size of a few inches of matter. Maybe in 100 years or so, we can do the [human] brain.”
Davoudi thinks that classical computers will soon hit a wall, however. “In the next maybe 10 to 20 years, we will actually see the limits of our classical simulations of the physical systems,” she says. Thus, she is turning her sights to quantum computation, which relies on superpositions and other quantum effects to make tractable certain computational problems that would be impossible through classical approaches. “If quantum computing actually materializes, in the sense that it’s a large scale, reliable computing option for us, then we’re going to enter a completely different era of simulation,” Davoudi says. “I am starting to think about how to perform my simulations of strong interaction physics and atomic nuclei if I had a quantum computer that was viable.”
All of these factors have led Davoudi to speculate about the simulation hypothesis. If our reality is a simulation, then the simulator is likely also discretizing spacetime to save on computing resources (assuming, of course, that it is using the same mechanisms as our physicists for that simulation). Signatures of such discrete spacetime could potentially be seen in the directions high-energy cosmic rays arrive from: they would have a preferred direction in the sky because of the breaking of so-called rotational symmetry.
Telescopes “haven’t observed any deviation from that rotational invariance yet,” Davoudi says. And even if such an effect were to be seen, it would not constitute unequivocal evidence that we live in a simulation. Base reality itself could have similar properties.
Kipping, despite his own study, worries that further work on the simulation hypothesis is on thin ice. “It’s arguably not testable as to whether we live in a simulation or not,” he says. “If it’s not falsifiable, then how can you claim it’s really science?”
Scientific American
Remember:
This is a theory that is kinda like creationism, sort of.
And the wave function collapse is seen as evidence consistent with requirements of the theory - efficiency.
Not really good evidence for "materialism" (in the way we often think of it) when a "creation" model, with the best chances of being possible, seems to strongly prefer this (collapsing wave function) feature.
Evolving linear Wave Function = non-creation
Collapsing wave function = (possible) creation

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Taq, posted 04-29-2024 11:20 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Taq, posted 04-30-2024 10:38 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2436
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 71 of 134 (918391)
04-30-2024 3:34 AM


The Father of String Theory - Lenny Susskind - thinks the biggest ideas are testable
I just read this:
quote:
Multiverse = Many Worlds, Say Physicists | MIT Technology Review.
The many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is the idea that all possible alternate histories of the universe actually exist. At every point in time, the universe splits into a multitude of existences in which every possible outcome of each quantum process actually happens.
So in this universe you are sitting in front of your computer reading this story, in another you are reading a different story, in yet another you are about to be run over by a truck. In many, you don’t exist at all.
This implies that there are an infinite number of universes, or at least a very large number of them.
That’s weird but it is a small price to pay, say quantum physicists, for the sanity the many worlds interpretation brings to the otherwise crazy notion of quantum mechanics. The reason many physicists love the many worlds idea is that it explains away all the strange paradoxes of quantum mechanics.
The theory has been described as the self-evident reality of the Quantum Physics, per the Erwin Schroedinger formulation of the 1930s. It took a few decades for explicit descriptions of the equation to = many worlds. Schroedinger's quotes did not feature any indications of Many Worlds until 1952, and only one quote, from another person, from the late-1940s described alternate universes.
Going on:
quote:
For example, the paradox of Schrodinger’s cat–trapped in a box in which a quantum process may or may not have killed it– is that an observer can only tell whether the cat is alive or dead by opening the box.
But before this, the quantum process that may or may not kill it is in a superposition of states, so the cat must be in a superposition too: both alive and dead at the same time.
That’s clearly bizarre but in the many worlds interpretation, the paradox disappears: the cat dies in one universe and lives in another.
Now, the separate (less controversial) Eternal Inflation multiverse:
quote:
Let’s put the many world interpretation aside for a moment and look at another strange idea in modern physics. This is the idea that our universe was born along with a large, possibly infinite, number of other universes. So our cosmos is just one tiny corner of a much larger multiverse.
Today, Leonard Susskind at Stanford University in Palo Alto and Raphael Bousso at the University of California, Berkeley, put forward the idea that the multiverse and the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics are formally equivalent.
But there is a caveat. The equivalence only holds if both quantum mechanics and the multiverse take special forms.
The Multiverse is an implication of the hypothetical early cosmic inflation, which took place when the universe was a fraction of a second old. It started and stopped in the first second - IN OUR UNIVERSE.
Most versions of the early INFLATION theory require that the inflation broke off in our universe (the break-away was what became our universe) and kept going - in effect creating space/universes, then breaking away in an infinite splitting/creating of universal real-estate KNOW AS THE MULTI-VERSE.
The Cosmic Microwave Background was seen clearly enough, in the early 21st century, that a flat isotropic topography with necessary spatial dimensions that fit best with the theory escribing an early Inflationary event, per the inflation theories.
The INFLATON particle was Alan Guth's prediction, and it was a scalar particle. The theory required a discovery of a scalar particle - which the Higgs Boson's demonstrable existence satisfied, in the teen's decade of the 21st century.
So the eternal Multiverse is actually the best interpretation of the evidence, per the observatkions and discoveries.
Back to MIT, and the authoritative Leonard Susskind
quote:
Let’s take quantum mechanics first. Susskind and Bousso propose that it is possible to verify the predictions of quantum mechanics exactly.
At one time, such an idea would have been heresy. But in theory, it could be done if an observer could perform an infinite number of experiments and observe the outcome of them all.
But that’s impossible, right? Nobody can do an infinite number of experiments. Relativity places an important practical limit on this because some experiments would fall outside the causal horizon of others. And that would mean that they couldn’t all be observed.
But Susskind and Bousso say there is a special formulation of the universe in which this is possible. This is known as the supersymmetric multiverse with vanishing cosmological constant.
Sans the Cosmological Constant, in this theory he formulated, back in the day
quote:
If the universe takes this form, then it is possible to carry out an infinite number of experiments within the causal horizon of each other.
Now here’s the key point: this is exactly what happens in the many worlds interpretation. At each instant in time, an infinite (or very large) number of experiments take place within the causal horizon of each other. As observers, we are capable of seeing the outcome of any of these experiments but we actually follow only one.
Bousso and Susskind argue that since the many worlds interpretation is possible only in their supersymmetric multiverse, they must be equivalent. “We argue that the global multiverse is a representation of the many-worlds in a single geometry,” they say.
They call this new idea the multiverse interpretation of quantum mechanics.
String Theory is known to have lots and lots of variable theories, for endless possibilities
quote:
That’s something worth pondering for a moment. Bousso and Susskind are two of the world’s leading string theorists (Susskind is credited as the father of the field), so their ideas have an impeccable pedigree.
But what this idea lacks is a testable prediction that would help physicists distinguish it experimentally from other theories of the universe. And without this crucial element, the multiverse interpretation of quantum mechanics is little more than philosophy.
That may not worry too many physicists, since few of the other interpretations of quantum mechanics have testable predictions either (that’s why they’re called interpretations).
Still, what this new approach does have is a satisfying simplicity– it’s neat and elegant that the many worlds and the multiverse are equivalent. William of Ockham would certainly be pleased and no doubt, many modern physicists will be too.
Ref: arxiv.org/abs/1105.3796 : The Multiverse Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics
This is essentially an almost multidisciplinary approach.
There is a parsing of the best separate theories.
Testing and harmonizing all the theories, based on using the best cosmological landscape, and then using the separate physical theories most consistent with the best observations.
The theories that make predictions, and match up with future discoveries.
On balance, both "String Theory" and the Many Worlds Interpretatiion have been considered to have the best overall mathematical underpinning, at least.
This seems like the best theory, now that the cosmological constant is being tested with better observations and metrics. And it is indeed vanishing.

  
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Message 72 of 134 (918392)
04-30-2024 7:52 AM


Moderator Action
I've been gradually incrementing LamarkNewAge's daily post limit, but his last two messages were primarily quotes and not his own words. To repeat the relevant item from the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.
For this reason I am setting LamarkNewAge's daily post limit back down to 1.

--Percy
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Taq
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(2)
Message 73 of 134 (918399)
04-30-2024 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by LamarkNewAge
04-30-2024 2:28 AM


Re: ChatGPT noticed Taq is talking about the broad Quantum Mind issue.
LNA writes:
If we discovered all the forces that truly exist (The Cosmological Constant gets scratched off as Force #5, it seems), then we would probably learn alot of things (duh), and:

The boundaries of what constitutes "materialism", would become a question.

(We have already moved the boundaries, really)

The catch is we don't even know what "we" (when?!) discover, but it will probably only be a small part of what exists.
The boundaries of materialism would be exactly where they are now which is explaining the universe through natural processes.
You are describing a particle as something making up it's own wave function, and then you blur the lines between it and the measuring apparatus/observer.
Blur the lines? What are you talking about?
Photons create their own wave function. That wave function collapses when the photon is absorbed. This is basic QM.
"Of course the introduction of the observer must not be misunderstood to imply that some kind of subjective features are to be brought into the description of nature. The observer has, rather, only the function of registering decisions, i.e., processes in space and time, and it does not matter whether the observer is an apparatus or a human being; but the registration, i.e., the transition from the "possible" to the "actual," is absolutely necessary here and cannot be omitted from the interpretation of quantum theory."--Werner Heisenberg
"all unambiguous information concerning atomic objects is derived from the permanent marks such as a spot on a photographic plate, caused by the impact of an electron left on the bodies which define the experimental conditions. Far from involving any special intricacy, the irreversible amplification effects on which the recording of the presence of atomic objects rests rather remind us of the essential irreversibility inherent in the very concept of observation. The description of atomic phenomena has in these respects a perfectly objective character, in the sense that no explicit reference is made to any individual observer and that therefore, with proper regard to relativistic exigencies, no ambiguity is involved in the communication of information."--Neils Bohr
"similar to the ubiquitous "observers" who send and receive light signals in special relativity. Obviously, this terminology does not imply the actual presence of human beings. These fictitious physicists may as well be inanimate automata that can perform all the required tasks, if suitably programmed."--Asher Peres
"Was the wave function waiting to jump for thousands of millions of years until a single-celled living creature appeared? Or did it have to wait a little longer for some highly qualified measurer—with a PhD?"--John Bell [with tongue firmly in cheek]
You then said:

"It would seem to support materialism."

But, would it?
Yes. Everything you describe is materialism.
This is a theory that is kinda like creationism, sort of.
No, it isn't. Everything is entirely natural, no supernatural processes in sight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-30-2024 2:28 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-01-2024 7:49 AM Taq has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
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Message 74 of 134 (918416)
05-01-2024 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Taq
04-30-2024 10:38 AM


The Wave Function UNITARY EVOLUTION + REDUCTION lession.
You seem to be more worried about splitting hairs over whether the REDUCTION - in conventional Quantum Mechanics - is described as "measurement" or "observation". The two terms are used interchangeably.
The bigger issue is whether the REDUCTION is something that happens at all.
REDUCTION = Collapse of Wave Function
John Bell, who you seemed to feel offered you a supporting quote, actually DISAGREES with your belief in the existence of the REDUCTION. His quote, in actuality, OPPOSES your view of reality. Bell, was impressed by Einstein's past quotes, when he stated that the moon should not have to wait for a measurement to "exist".
However (Taq):
Your belief in the Collapse of the Quantum Wave Function, via measurement/observation, is indeed the majority view.
(Einstein compared your reasoning - Taq - to saying that the world's parts do not actually exist when they wait to be measured.)
THAT IS THE ACTUAL ISSUE!
But, for your red herring issue:
I had a good 2005 journal on the arguments of von Neumann an others for conscious observation causing the wave function collapse. Found it.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/...e/abs/pii/S0303264705000237
(The real issue is the wave function collapse, the distinction between what the measuring process is - in this case - is fairly unimportant)
quote:
Biosystems
Volume 81, Issue 2, August 2005, Pages 113-124
Fred H. Thaheld
Abstract
An analysis has been performed of the theories and postulates advanced by von Neumann, London and Bauer, and Wigner, concerning the role that consciousness might play in the collapse of the wave function, which has become known as the measurement problem. This reveals that an error may have been made by them in the area of biology and its interface with quantum mechanics when they called for the reduction of any superposition states in the brain through the mind or consciousness. Many years later Wigner changed his mind to reflect a simpler and more realistic objective position which appears to offer a way to resolve this issue. The argument is therefore made that the wave function of any superposed photon state or states is always objectively and stochastically changed within the complex architecture of the eye in a continuous linear process initially for most of the superposed photons, followed by a discontinuous nonlinear collapse process later for any remaining superposed photons, thereby guaranteeing that only final, measured information is presented to the brain, mind or consciousness. An experiment to be conducted in the near future may enable us to simultaneously resolve the measurement problem and also determine if the linear nature of quantum mechanics is violated by the perceptual process.
Introduction
What is the measurement problem and why is the act of measurement deemed so important in quantum mechanics that it has engendered such spirited discussion for over seven decades? The measurement problem can be approached in the following fashion. von Neumann (1932) advanced the theory that the possible states of a system can be characterized by state vectors, also known as wave functions, which change in two ways: continuously in a linear fashion as a result of a passage of time, as per Schrödinger's equation and, discontinuously if a measurement is carried out on the system (Wigner, 1961, Shimony, 1963). This second type of discontinuous change, called the reduction of the state vector or collapse of the wave function, is unacceptable to many physicists. The measurement problem can then be posed as how and when does the wave function collapse or, how does a state reduction to one of the eigenstates of the measured observable occur.
Wikipedia reference.
quote:
Collapse
To account for the experimental result that repeated measurements of a quantum system give the same results, the theory postulates a "collapse" or "reduction of the state vector" upon observation,[7]: 566  abruptly converting an arbitrary state into a single component eigenstate of the observable:
Griffiths, David J.; Schroeter, Darrell F. (2018). Introduction to quantum mechanics (3 ed.). Cambridge ; New York, NY: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-18963-8.
Wave function collapse - Wikipedia
End of the unimportant distinction without a difference.
NOW TO THE ISSUE OF THE PHYSICAL WORLD
quote:
Blur the lines? What are you talking about?

Photons create their own wave function. That wave function collapses when the photon is absorbed. This is basic QM.
I am not going to parse your sentence, but I will try to clarify some concepts of the Quantum Superposition.
Understand what terms mean:
Superposition
Hilbert Space
Wave Function
Amplitudes
I will type some select areas from his book Fashion, Faith, an Fantsay
quote:
Roger Penrose
2.9. THE GEOMETRY OF QUANTUM SPIN
The most clear-cut relation between Hilbert-space geometry and that of ordinary 3-dimensional space indeed occurs with the spin states. This is particularly so, for a massive particle of spin 1/2, such as an electron, proton, or neutron, or certain atomic nuclei or atoms. By studying these spin states we can get a better picture of how the measurement process in quantum mechanics actually operates.
....
The QUANTUM STATES OF SPIN for a particle of spin 1/2 are exactly in accordance with these classical states - although subject to the strange rules that quantum mechanics demands. Thus, for ANY SPATIAL DIRECTION, there will be a state of spin in which the particle spins in a right-handed sense about that direction, its spin having a magnitude of 1/2 h.
However quantum mechanics tells us that ALL THESE POSSIBILITIES can be expressed as LINEAR SUPERPOSITIONS of any two different such states, these spanning the space of all possible spin states. If we take these two as having opposite directions of spin about some particular direction, tghen they will be orthogonal states. Thus, we have a 2-complex-dimensional Hilbert space H2, and an ORTHOGONAL BASIS for states of spin 1/2 would always be (right-hand spin about) such a pair of opposite directions. We shall be seeing shortly how any other direction of the particle's spin can indeed be expressed as a QUANTUM LINEAR SUPERPOSITION of these two oppositely spinning states.
In the literature, a commonly used basis takes these directions to be UP and DOWN, frequently written as
Quantum AMPLITUDES don't mean every possibility has the same chance, but certain movements are more possible than others. It is reflected in a hypothetically quantifiable number of respective outcomes in the Many Worlds scenarios.
quote:
We have seen that this principle of quantum SUPERPOSITION of states is fundamental to the linearity of quantum evolution, which is itself central to the U time evolution of the quantum state (Schrodinger equation). Standard quantum mechanics puts no limit on the scale at which U supplies to a physical system. For example, recall the cat of 1.4. Let us suppose that there is a room, connected to the outside by two separate doors A and B, and that there is a hungry cat outside, the room itself containing some tempting food, both doors being initially closed. Suppose there is a high-energy photon detector connected to each door - at respective locations A and B - which automatically opens the particular door to which it is connected, when it receives such a photon from a (50%) beam splitter at some location M by a laser at L (figure 2-15).
The situation is just like that of experiment 1 in 2.3 (figure 2-4 (a)). In any actual realization of this arrangement, the cat would experience one or the other (with, here, a 50% probability of each outcome). Yet, if we are to follow the detailed evolution of the system, supposed to act in accordance with U with its implied linearity, as applied to all the ingredients that are relevant - the laser, the emitted photon, the material in the beam splitter, the detectors, the doors, the cat herself, and the air in the rooms, etc. - then the superposed state which starts with the photon leaving the beam splitter in a superposition of being reflected and transmitted must evolve to a superposition of two states each with just one of the doors open, and eventually to a superposed cat's motion through the two different doors at once!
Now to the REDUCTION = R or collapse of the particles
Standard Quantum Theory has Quantum Measurement
This is the efficient JUMPY Universe of the Copenhagen interpretation. Or the standard interpretation, very necessarily the Copenhagen view.
quote:
2.8. QUANTUM MEASUREMENT
In order to understand how quantum mechanics deals with such seemingly blatant discrepancies between experienced reality and the U-evolution process, we shall need first to understand how the R procedure actually operates in quantum theory. This is the issue of QUANTUM MEASUREMENT. Quantum theory allows that only a restricted amount of information can be extracted from the quantum state of a system, an directly ascertaining by measurement what the quantum state actually is, is not considered to be achievable. Instead, any particular measuring device can only distinguish a certain limited set of alternatives for the state. If the state prior to the measurement does not happen to be one of those allowed alternatives, with a probability that the theory provides (in fact, calculated by the Born rule alluded to in 2.6 above - and also in 1.4 - and described in more detail below).
This quantum jumping is one of the oddest features of quantum mechanics, and many theorists deeply question the actual physical reality of this procedure. Even Erwin Schrodinger himself is reported (by Werner Heisenberg ...) to have said: "If all this damned quantum jumping were really here to stay then I should be sorry I ever got involved in quantum theory."
This early "quantum jumping", seems to be a principle behind the efficiency theories of the QUANTUM WORLD with the simulation theory.
Bohr responded to Shrodinger (who would later reject early quantum jumping and the SLIGHTLY later wave function COLLAPSE)
quote:
"But the rest of us are extremely grateful that you did; your wave mechanics... represents a gigantic avance over all previous forms of quantum mechanics."
Penrose said:
"Nevertheless, this is the procedure which, when adopted, gives us results of quantum mechanics that are, as things stand, in full agreement with observation."
The quantum jumping is getting a glowing review by Penrose, so take notice Taq.
quote:
p.205
I have not refrained from pointing out that there appears to be a fundamental inconsistency between the two bedrock procedures of quantum theory, namely the unitary (i.e. Schrodinger) evolution U and the state reduction R which takes place upon quantum measurement. To most quantum practitioners, this inconsistency is regarded as being something apparent, which is to be removed by the adoption of the right "interpretation" of the quantum formalism.
....
p.206
If we try to maintain a consistent ontology, while still holing faithfully to U at all levels, then we are led, inevitably, to some kind of many-worlds interpretation
....
p.208
It is often argued that no counterexamples to quantum theory have ever been observed, and that all experiments to date, over a huge variety of different phenomena an over a very considerable range of scales, have continued to give complete confirmation of quantum theory, an this includes the U-evolution of the quantum state.
p.126
there is the quantum mechanical conclusion, pointed out to the reader in 1.4, that a quantum particle can exist in a state where it simultaneously occupies two separated locations...the theory asserts that the same could apply to any macroscopic body
The debate has implications for the simulation theory that are enormous.
The Many Worlds INTERPRETATION has long been seen as requiring a lot of energy.
The Copenhagen theory - with QUANTUM JUMPS from Hilbert Space - can be seen as holding everything in a suspended & efficient space till measurement collapses the wave function.
Credible Creationist theories - the simulation theory - prefer the Copenhagen interpretation.
With a suspension in Hilbert space
quote:
What is a Hilbert Space? Mathematically, it is a vector space... which can be either finite dimensional or infinite dimensional.
....
In quantum mechanics, the complex-number scalars a, b, c, ...for this vector space are the complex amplitudes that occur in the quantum-mechanical superposition law, this superposition principle itself providing the addition operation of the Hilbert vector space
In Many Worlds, the Wave Function is an immediate duplication of the universe's particles into multiple worlds. Rays through Hilbert Space, and the quantum amplitudes are a statistical quantifier type of distribution of positions in the worlds.
In the standard version of Quantum Mechanics, Hibbert Space holds all the amplitudes in a superposition, also. But is there an efficiency thing going on?
Einstein said that it is messed up to think the moon does not really exist unless it is measured.
But maybe the Universe is messed with?
Simulation, anyone?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Taq, posted 04-30-2024 10:38 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Taq, posted 05-01-2024 11:13 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10119
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 75 of 134 (918423)
05-01-2024 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by LamarkNewAge
05-01-2024 7:49 AM


Re: The Wave Function UNITARY EVOLUTION + REDUCTION lession.
LNA writes:
I had a good 2005 journal on the arguments of von Neumann an others for conscious observation causing the wave function collapse.
Everyone agrees that conscious observers cause wave function collapse. The disagreement is over the claim that ONLY conscious observers can cause wave functions to collapse.
I am not going to parse your sentence, but I will try to clarify some concepts of the Quantum Superposition.
Let's use the double slit experiment as an example.
The concept is that the photon passes through both the slits (superposition) and interferes with itself, causing a banding pattern on the photosensitive film on the other side of the two slits.
The question we can pose is when does this interference pattern appear on the film? Does it develop one photon at a time while the experiment is running, or does it all appear at once when the scientist looks at the film to see the results?
I would say that the interference pattern is already there before the scientist looks at it. What do you say?
Added in edit:
The technological hurdles of quantum computing does a good job of highlighting these issues:
quote:
For a quantum computer to work, it is necessary to establish and manipulate subtle quantum interactions among multiple qubits — a state known as entanglement. However, for this to work, the qubits themselves need to remain stable or “coherent”, which means keeping it in a well-defined quantum state. The problem is, coherence is difficult to maintain as it easily crumbles when qubits interact with their surroundings — even radiation from space can throw them.
https://www.advancedsciencenews.com/...om-temperature-qubits
Researchers consider it a success if they can maintain superposition for hundreds of nanoseconds. The loss of superposition is due to the computer interacting with its environment. It is just unconscious things interacting with unconscious things, and it causes wave functions to collapse.
They also have to build extremely technologically advanced and engineered systems just to get nanoseconds of stability, and yet we also asked to believe that quantum mechanics has a discernable affect on brain function which has nothing to protect from loss of superposition, and operates on time scales orders of magnitude slower than seen in quantum computers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-01-2024 7:49 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
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