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Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Taq
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 282 of 378 (915640)
02-15-2024 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Phat
02-15-2024 1:51 AM


Re: My Take Without Looking It Up
Phat writes:
OK. In order.
1) Balfour Declaration
2) WW II Genocide, leading to a combination of increased Zionism and Western sympathy.
3) Israel becomes a nation. It is plopped in the middle of Historic Palestine.
4) The "never again" victims soon become the aggressors and victimizers. The Arab nations attempt to push Israel out.
5) 4 wars later, Israel is firmly and stubbornly entrenched, (even having acquired more land through the wars) and is powerful due to constant US support
6) Palestinians become the new Jews in the victimization sense. They publically declare their hatred for Israel and have the aim of eliminating the Jewish State.
7)Arafat and Begin embrace before a beaming Clinton.
8) Impatient youth demand change, and embrace Hamas, and Iran becomes the Islamic counterpart of the US, supporting the cause.
9) October 7th, and the subsequent war. Hardline conservatives led by Netanyahu become convinced that it's either them or us and choose the path now taken.

Hows that?
Reminds a bit of US actions over the last 20 years. The US war against Iraq saw US forces based in Saudi Arabia, leading to Al Queda with ties to the Taliban. 9/11 happened, and the US went into Afghanistan to root out the political faction responsible for the attacks.

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Taq
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 286 of 378 (917869)
04-19-2024 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Phat
04-19-2024 8:04 AM


Re: Israel Retaliates For Iran Missle Attack
Phat writes:
It was a measured Israeli response to Iran's Drone and Missile attack.
Attacks from both sides were all for show. Iran informed the world that they were going to launch missiles at Israel, even giving their flight path so that they could be shot down without hitting anything. It was Iran's way of saving face.

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Taq
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 287 of 378 (917870)
04-19-2024 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Rahvin
02-24-2024 6:08 PM


Re: In Your Own Words
Just saw that the post I am replying to is from Feb, so the questions are open to the floor.
Rahvin writes:
Here's a hint - Palestinian support for Hamas increased with the Gaza invasion from Israel. Violent oppression breeds support for Hamas. Peace is what weakens and dismantles Hamas!
So what is Israel supposed to do? Just let thousands of their citizens be slaughtered every few months from Hamas raids? Continually have rockets launched at their citizens?
What's the solution here? This isn't some underground terrorist organization within Gaza. This is the government of Gaza doing this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Rahvin, posted 02-24-2024 6:08 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Rahvin, posted 04-19-2024 8:05 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 314 of 378 (918073)
04-22-2024 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Rahvin
04-19-2024 8:05 PM


Re: In Your Own Words
Rahvin writes:
Military action in civilian locations are a terrible idea. The actual military targets just fade away into the populace. What you wind up doing is just killing and oppressing civilians...justifying every word that your opposition uses as recruitment.
In the same way, do the Hamas attacks justify what Israel is doing? Are the Hamas attacks bringing more recruits to Israel's side?
The solution therefore is to....not oppress Palestinians.
How was Israel oppressing Gaza before the attack that killed thousands of Israeli's?
There were no Israeli's in Gaza. Gaza had complete autonomy within their own borders, and they had been given massive amounts of aid to build infrastructure and a country of their own. What Israeli attacks did happen were in retaliation for rockets that Hamas sends over the border.
What Israel should be doing is seeking reconciliation, not genocide. Palestinians have absolutely legitimate grievances against Israel, stemming all the way before the Israeli state was formed from their literal backyards. Stop the checkpoints. Stop the settlements (which are already in violation of multiple international agreements). Either recognize a Palestinian state according to the pre-1960s borders, or grant Palestinians full recognition and citizenship under Israeli law along with the "right of return." Severely punish Israeli citizens and military personnel who abuse and murder Palestinians. Investigate such actions in good faith. Stop indefinitely imprisoning Palestinians without charges.
There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza as of 2007. There were no Israeli's at all in Gaza when the Hamas attacks occurred last October. Gaza was under 100% Palestinian authority, and Hamas was and is their chosen government.
The Palenstinians have also been offered a two state solution multiple times, and they have turned it down time after time after time.
So why aren't you as adamant for Palestinians to seek reconciliation?
I'm going to make the assumption that you've watched Star Trek: Deeps Space Nine. Most of us are nerds here of the appropriate generations, I dont think it's an unsafe assumption.

Major Kira was a terrorist against Cardassian occupation. She did evil, very bad things. Murdered people, including their families. She did those things because she didnt have a lot of choices - the Cardassians were massacring her people and using them for slave labor and worse. Her own mother was a "comfort woman" for the Cardassian equivalent of Hitler, and while the specifics were complicated, she wasn't consenting.
None of this was happening in Gaza. Gaza was under 100% Palestinian rule. In fact, it was against the law in Gaza for an Israeli to even walk the streets in Gaza.
So what more was Israel to do? There were no settlements in Gaza. They offered a two state solution multiple times. Israel only retaliated when fired upon. Israel tried it your way, from all appearances.
Added in edit:
3 out of 4 Palestinians support the Oct. 7 attack that killed thousands of Israeli's.
quote:
Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect". The remainder were undecided or gave no answer.
reuters.com
How does Israel reconcile with a group where 75% support the slaughter of your people?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Rahvin, posted 04-19-2024 8:05 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Rahvin, posted 04-25-2024 1:42 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 316 of 378 (918305)
04-25-2024 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Rahvin
04-25-2024 1:42 PM


Re: In Your Own Words
Rahvin writes:
The justification is in the eyes of the populace, not external observers. When Israel bombs a neighborhood, the people who survive in the rubble are now more sympathetic to any opposition to Israel, including Hamas, regardless of whether Hamas poked the bear.

The second part is a little complicated - probably not in this case, actually, since Israel already has compulsory military service. But in general, yes absolutely it does increase recruitment for the other side. Look at the US back after 9/11 - US military recruitment grew significantly.

But the value of recruitment is just as asymmetrical as the forces involved, and it's not only about direct fighter recruitment. Remember, terrorism (also called "asymmetric warfare") is a PR campaign with violence. The smaller force needs recruitment more than the larger force. The smaller force needs increasing sympathy and support from allies more than the larger force. The smaller force hopes to gain international support in the form of sanctions, possible military intervention, etc. The larger force is already the larger force.
The asymmetry I am seeing is that Hamas can apparently do whatever they want, and they are justified in doing so for whatever reason. Israel responds to thousands of its citizens being killed in a terrorist attack, and everyone clutches their pearls.
At the same time, I will fully agree that how Israel carries out the removal of Hamas from Gaza is very, very important. I do think they could have done it differently, just as many US military actions could have been carried out in a more ethical and moral manner. The hard part is that there is nowhere for Palestinians to go. The US levelled Fallujah to get rid of ISIS, but at least the citizens could escape the city.
Just over 1000. "Thousands" is is a weasel-word that implies more "balance" in loss between the Hamas attack vs Israel's military action. ~1100 is not the same as 34000+. It's not remotely the same. And let's be very clear - when you ask "what was Israel to do?", the answer is most emphatically not to kill 30000+ civilians, mostly women and children, by indiscriminately bombing civilian residences, constantly attacking and rendering inoperative all hospitals, destroying schools, using snipers to shoot clear noncombatants like women and children, etc.
Do you think some sort of military incursion was justified?
Israel has been oppressing specifically Gaza and the West Bank since the 60s.
Hamas was sending suicide bombers across the border, so Israel closed the border. There were no Israeli's in Gaza. What happened in Gaza is the responsibility of Palestinians. They had aid money coming in, but what did they do? Instead of using the money for infrastructure and improving Gaza they used it for terrorism, and to line the pockets of Hamas leaders. Israel didn't do that.
Israel had a lot of alternatives available. The best ones would have been alternative actions before Oct 7. Afterward, they should have focused on hostage retrieval and offered a path to peace. It doesnt matter if Israel would have "looked weak" or whatever. It doesnt matter if "the terrorists would have won." Peace would have meant that everyone could win. Peace meaning a recognition of an actual Palestinian state and good-faith efforts to set the stage for long-term reconciliation.
What I find frustrating is that Israel is expected to do what no one expects the Palestinians to do. Hamas has sworn to rid all of Israel of Jews, the infamous "From the river to the sea" chant. This is part of Hamas' charter, plainly written out. People think that's fine. However, Israel is supposed to take it on the chin and absorb any and all terrorism. It just seems like there is a real asymmetry in expectations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Rahvin, posted 04-25-2024 1:42 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Rahvin, posted 04-25-2024 4:46 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 318 of 378 (918340)
04-26-2024 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Rahvin
04-25-2024 4:46 PM


Re: In Your Own Words
Rahvin writes:
I did not apologize for Hamas. I explicitly called them bad guys. The thing is, in a conflict like this, there are only bad guys and their victims.
I would also say that there are only bad choices and worse choices when it comes to how Israel should confront the violence that is being visited on them.
You cannot fight terrorism with military actions. There are literal textbooks on this. You can use military defenses like teh Iron Dome to protect against specific types of attacks, and you can use special forces/drones/other very targeted attacks to "reform" the leadership of a smaller force to make it less radical. But mass bombing and invasion do not and cannot work.
At what point is it no longer terrorism? When Germany invaded France (twice), was that terrorism? When a government entity is purchasing and launching missiles into your country, is that terrorism?
In my eyes, Hamas is not like Al Qaeda or ISIS. Hamas runs the government of Gaza. They are the government. They funnel aid money into weapons and military training.
And at what point is a population responsible for the actions of their government? Were Allied forces justified in bombing German cities during WW II?
Read the ICJ report, it contains source-cited factual details about the oppression of Gaza. You are misinformed.
That's fair. It appears that I was not informed of some of Israel's wrongdoings.
There is also the problem of aid money going towards weapons and military training in Gaza, not to mention the ongoing attacks by Hamas and every indication that they will never stop. The goal of Hamas is remove Jews from Israel, and no amount of relaxation of fishing waters or farmland is going to change that.
I find it frustrating when people defend an ongoing genocide.
It's not a genocide. If it was a genocide then Palestinians in the West Bank would be under attack right now. Israel is attacking Hamas. Hamas is not a race of people. If the Palestinians had rounded up the Hamas leadership and handed them over this would be done.
Please explain why you believe any action from any faction justifies the violence, intentional starvation, and other war crimes being actively committed right thi moment by Israel.
A country is justified in taking out a government that threatens and is actively attacking them.
Why is it that Israel-apologists think that it's necessary to condemn Hamas with every utterance of an Israeli war crime? Why is it so hard to simply agree that killing civilians, NO MATTER WHAT, is unjustified and evil and should be stopped?
One of the issues is that I don't know what can be believed in the reports. Many, many times there have been reports whose sole source is Hamas, and they turn out to be lies. There is also the issue of Hamas puposefully using their own population as a shield. For example, they launch missiles from schools and hospitals hoping that Israeli's will have the moral and ehtics that they lack.
The civilians on Oct 7 didnt deserve to die or be captured.
The people of Gaza don't deserve what is currently happening to them.
The difference, other than scale, is that one is still happening and can be stopped, and only one side has the power to stop it.
Then open the Egyptian border. Why hasn't that happened?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 358 of 378 (918566)
05-09-2024 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Percy
04-30-2024 8:20 AM


Re: Santayana
Percy writes:
But perhaps my generation, the Baby Boomers, the protest generation, has already passed out of a leadership role at universities and been replaced by Generation X which has no first hand familiarity with large scale government misbehavior and the protests of the late 60's and early 70's against the Vietnam War.
That's my generation, so I can confirm what you are saying. Our Woodstock was a bit different than the one our parents' generation went to. The closest Gen X has been to larger protests was the protest against the Iraq war in 2004, but that was nothing like the late 60's.
At the same time, Gen X experienced the hangover from those protests in the late 70's and 80's. I'm thinking of films like Platoon, The Deer Hunter (late 70's), Apocalypse Now, and Rambo which scratched at a lot of old wounds in society. It was our father's generation that went to war in Vietnam, so there was still some connective tissue there.
It isn't that this is Kent State all over again, not yet, but the anti-protest attitudes we're seeing today are the beginning stages.
Law enforcement knows they are being watched and will be judged for what they do. I'm hoping this will prevent something like what was seen at Kent State. However, humans judgement can be extremely impaired in stressful situations which makes me worried.

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Taq
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 360 of 378 (918782)
05-22-2024 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Percy
05-22-2024 8:41 AM


Re: Israel is Recruiting the Next Generation of Hamas Fighters
Percy writes:
If we Americans were wondering how most of Afghanistan came to support the brutal Taliban, there it is. When caught in the crossfire between two evils, you choose the lesser evil. We were the other evil, the greater evil. It felt to American commanders that only the most brutal Afghan commanders were effective against the Taliban, and so we aligned ourselves with the greater evil inside the country.
I tend to think that Afghani's prefer an authoritarian theocracy over a western style democracy, no matter who is offered as a democratic leader.
Israel is repeating this mistake in Gaza and the West Bank. Until they stop using Zionism and their own history as excuses to treat other peoples as having lesser or no rights or even as subhuman then there will always be conflict in the Middle East. Both Russia and the US lost in Afghanistan, and eventually even Rome fell. There's nothing sacred that says Israel must survive. They survived the 1967 war, they survived Intifada, they'll probably survive the current war in Gaza, but how many more wars will they survive as their very efforts to make Israel a safe haven for Jews only place them in greater peril.
Both sides need to look to the future and move on from the past. Palestinians need to realize that they aren't going to push all the Jews into the sea and reclaim a Palestinian state. Israeli Jews need to accept Palestinians as equal citizens, and figure out a way to share power so that both populations can thrive.
Part of the problem is that the Palestinians have no allies, not even in the Arab Sunni world. Egypt seems like an obvious broker for some sort of talks, but they want nothing to do with the Palestinians.
Even worse, Palestinians have been used as pawns by other governments. Saudi Arabia and Israel were moving closer and closer to normalization between the two countries. Iran didn't like this, which is most likely what led to the terrorist attacks last October. Iran used Palestinians and Hamas to poison talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia.
What would happen if Israel and Saudi Arabia normalized relations? Saudi Arabia could be a wonderful ally for Palestinians, and serve the role of an honest broker. I think this is one way to forge a new path. I really don't think Jews and Palestinians can fix this one on their own. Each side is way too entrenched.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Percy, posted 05-22-2024 8:41 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Percy, posted 05-22-2024 12:59 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 363 of 378 (918786)
05-22-2024 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by Percy
05-22-2024 12:59 PM


Re: Israel is Recruiting the Next Generation of Hamas Fighters
Percy writes:
The Camp David Accords. The Oslo Accords. The Whatever-Comes-Next Accords. None of it matters. There's too much distrust, too much animosity, too much history.
In my view, those were more about PR than actually fixing anything. There have to be constitutional level reforms, not wishy washy, feel good nonbinding agreements.
Having two states is the obvious solution, but Palestinians have fought against this tooth and nail because they only want a one state solution, a Palestinian state. No Israel. That's where we are stuck at. A two state solution has been offered to the Palestinians multiple times, and they turn it down every time. I think the only way this gets pushed through is with the help of an Arab Sunni ally (e.g. Saudi Arabia, UAE).

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Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Theodoric, posted 05-22-2024 5:10 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 365 of 378 (918789)
05-22-2024 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Theodoric
05-22-2024 5:10 PM


Re: Israel is Recruiting the Next Generation of Hamas Fighters
Theodoric writes:
Please show how and where they turned it down.
I will fully admit that I could be completely wrong on this, but this is what I have been reading:
quote:
The leadership of the Palestine Liberation Organization has accepted in principle the concept of a two-state solution since the 1982 Arab Summit in Fez,[3] having previously turned down such proposals since 1937. In 2017, Hamas announced their revised charter, which claims to accept the idea of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, but without recognising the statehood of Israel, referring to it as "the Zionist entity".[4] Diplomatic efforts have centred around realizing a two-state solution, starting from the failed 2000 Camp David Summit and the Clinton Parameters, followed by the Taba Summit in 2001. The failure of the Camp David summit to reach an agreed two-state solution formed the backdrop to the commencement of the Second Intifada, the violent consequences of which led to a hardening of attitudes among the Israeli public towards a Palestinian state and marked a turning point among both peoples’ attitudes.[5][6][7] A two-state solution also formed the basis of the Arab Peace Initiative, the 2006–2008 peace offer, and the 2013–14 peace talks. Despite the failure of these, international consensus has for decades supported a two-state solution to the conflict.[8]
Two-state solution - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Theodoric, posted 05-22-2024 5:10 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Theodoric, posted 05-22-2024 5:55 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 367 of 378 (918791)
05-22-2024 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Theodoric
05-22-2024 5:55 PM


Re: Israel is Recruiting the Next Generation of Hamas Fighters
Theodoric writes:
But in accepting the 1967 borders they are accepting Israel without declaring it outright. The accepting of 1967 borders was a huge concession. Hamas exists because of the intransigence of Israel and the US. The radicalism would not have taken over.if the Palestinian people saw a chance in negotiations with Israel. A kicked dog will bite.
That happened in 2000, and Arafat turned it down:
quote:
In 2000, after Yasser Arafat rejected the offer made to him by Ehud Barak based on a two-state solution and declined to negotiate for an alternative plan,[18] it became clear that Arafat would not make a deal with Israel unless it included the full Palestinian right of return, which would demographically destroy[19] the Jewish character[when defined as?] of the State of Israel.[20][21] For this reason, critics of Arafat claim that he put his desire to destroy the Jewish state above his dream of building an autonomous Palestinian state.[22]
Palestinian views on the peace process - Wikipedia
And again in 2008:
quote:
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has publicly admitted for the first time that he turned down a chance for a two-state peace deal with Israel in 2008 that would have given him nearly all the land the Palestinians wanted.
The offer by former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert included a near-total Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and a land link to the Gaza Strip. The Old City of East Jerusalem, home to Jewish and Arab holy sites, would have been under international control.
Abbas Admits Rejecting Two-State Peace Plan With Israel in 2008
Added in edit:
Also,
reuters.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Theodoric, posted 05-22-2024 5:55 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Theodoric, posted 05-22-2024 7:17 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 369 by Theodoric, posted 05-22-2024 7:24 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 374 of 378 (918801)
05-23-2024 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by Theodoric
05-22-2024 7:24 PM


Re: Israel is Recruiting the Next Generation of Hamas Fighters
Theodoric writes:
Basically, if you are being starved by someone and they give you a shit sandwich are you at fault for not eating it?
In 2000, Arafat wouldn't even negotiate. When it came down to actually realizing a two-state solution instead of just talking about it, Arafat walked away.
The deal was all of Gaza and 92% of the West Bank under Palestinian sovereignty. How is that a shit sandwich? And that was just the initial offer. As you said before:
"The radicalism would not have taken over.if the Palestinian people saw a chance in negotiations with Israel."
Well, they were offered serious negotiations, and a pretty good deal right off the bat. That happened again in 2008, and again Abbas didn't take advantage of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Theodoric, posted 05-22-2024 7:24 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by Theodoric, posted 05-23-2024 4:16 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 376 of 378 (918808)
05-24-2024 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by Theodoric
05-23-2024 4:16 PM


Re: Israel is Recruiting the Next Generation of Hamas Fighters
Theodoric writes:
Bull shit. Arafat and the Palestinians had solid proposals. The Israeli's made amorphous oral proposals. Nothing written down.
Israel made a take it or leave it offer. They are the ones that cut of negotiations.
All negotiations start out with oral proposals. There's no reason to write anything down until there's a basic agreement. That's a poor excuse.
If you want to claim that Israel wouldn't budge at one meeting, then fine. Anyone knows that these types of negotiations aren't finished in one meeting. If Arafat were actually serious he would have pushed for more meetings. He didn't.
These are the very start of negotiations that you claimed Palestinians wanted. They happened, but the Palestinians never seem interested in realizing them.
Have you read anything besides propaganda about this subject? Did you read the wiki link about the 2000 talks? Do you actually think what Abbas says is an admission of walking away from a legitimate deal? We know the reality is that he did not take Israel's first terms and the Israelis ultimately ended the talks.
Have you read anything besides propaganda?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Theodoric, posted 05-23-2024 4:16 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by Theodoric, posted 05-24-2024 11:21 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 378 of 378 (918821)
05-28-2024 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by Theodoric
05-24-2024 11:21 PM


Re: Israel is Recruiting the Next Generation of Hamas Fighters
Theodoric writes:
Or you could read what people who were actually there saw?
Opinion | Fictions About the Failure At Camp David - The New York Times
Did you even bother to look at any of the sources mentioned here?
Yes, I looked at them. It was pretty obvious that neither side was ultimately interested in a two state solution. However, Israel was willing to negotiate, the very thing that you said would lower radicalism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Theodoric, posted 05-24-2024 11:21 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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