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Author Topic:   How certain is materialism/physicalism as a description of ultimate reality?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 10 of 143 (917733)
04-14-2024 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by LamarkNewAge
04-14-2024 12:17 PM


Some Definitions Would Be Helpful
LNA writes:
Metaphysical is a hypothetical physical concept, as we all know.
Lets define three concepts which you have introduced.
Websters writes:
Materialism--
1: a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter
scientific materialism
b
: a doctrine that the only or the highest values or objectives lie in material well-being and the furtherance of material progress
c
: a doctrine that economic or social change is materially caused
So let's look up physicalism.
Websters writes:
: a thesis that the descriptive terms of scientific language are reducible to terms which refer to spatiotemporal things or events or to their properties
Sounds over my head! Let's stick with your term materialism for now.
On to Metaphysics
Webster writes:
a(1)
: a division of philosophy that is concerned with the fundamental nature of reality and being and that includes ontology, cosmology, and often epistemology
metaphysics … analyzes the generic traits manifested by existences of any kind—
J. H. Randall
(2)
: ontology sense 2
b
: abstract philosophical studies : a study of what is outside objective experience
steered philosophy away from metaphysics and toward the disciplines of natural science and linguistics—
Time
The dictionary reference goes on to say this:
Websters:
Just as physics deals with the laws that govern the physical world (such as those of gravity or the properties of waves), metaphysics describes what is beyond physics—the nature and origin of reality itself, the immortal soul, and the existence of a supreme being. Opinions about these metaphysical topics vary widely since what's being discussed can't be observed or measured or even truly known to exist. So most metaphysical questions are still as far from a final answer as they were when Plato and Aristotle were asking them.
The Websters reference provided one more notable insight:
quote:
The 1964 discovery of evidence supporting the big bang theory immediately elevated cosmology from metaphysics to hard science. — Richard Panek, Scientific American, 14 Nov. 2023
So which way do you want to go with this topic, LNA?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 12:17 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 3:42 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 11 of 143 (917735)
04-14-2024 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
04-13-2024 9:11 PM


Gathering Our Thoughts
LNA writes:
Materialism is the most relevant philosophy to a spiritual species, which humans seem to be.
So is this a philosophical discussion or a scientific one?
And what is it that you wish to discuss?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-13-2024 9:11 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 14 of 143 (917738)
04-14-2024 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by LamarkNewAge
04-14-2024 3:42 PM


EvC Primer on Peanut Gallery
You seem to want to engage in dialogue around here, and I have grown to accept you, hoping you will stay on topic.
LamarkNewAge in Message 20 writes:
Why does it need to be me? I will just answer that I don't know.
Keep in mind that you started this topic. You can run with and expand upon your ideas in Message 1
The peanut gallery is composed of the Boss, Percy as well as Tany and Xongsmith.(I mention them together as they usually both like the same posts) Tangle fits in there as does Taq, though Taq is distinct. PaulK is a veteran PG member who is not afraid to debate with the PG(peanut Gallery) crowd. dwise1 has a special disdain for Biblical Creationists and has debated them for many years. What I like about him is that he often goes out of his way to explain his reasoning in great detail, often embellishing personal anecdotes into his replies. Then we have Theodoric. He can come across as gruff and demanding, but he will challenge you to stay on topic and provide further explanations for your assertions in Message 1
To know EvC is to know the peanut gallery. There are a few other members that contribute less frequently but who read along with the conversations as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 3:42 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 15 of 143 (917739)
04-14-2024 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
04-14-2024 3:49 PM


Re: Some Definitions Would Be Helpful
Hey Boss! Quick question before i am out the door...
Is philosophy a scientific topic?
As far as your question to LNA, I think he went with the quote I linked from Websters:
Websters:
Just as physics deals with the laws that govern the physical world (such as those of gravity or the properties of waves), metaphysics describes what is beyond physics—the nature and origin of reality itself, the immortal soul, and the existence of a supreme being. Opinions about these metaphysical topics vary widely since what's being discussed can't be observed or measured or even truly known to exist. So most metaphysical questions are still as far from a final answer as they were when Plato and Aristotle were asking them.
LNA is just trying to fit in to our endless banter. Perhaps we can help him frame this topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 04-14-2024 3:49 PM Percy has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 21 of 143 (917750)
04-15-2024 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by LamarkNewAge
04-14-2024 4:33 PM


Re: Some Definitions Would Be Helpful
What study are you linking to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 4:33 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 27 of 143 (917796)
04-16-2024 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
04-13-2024 9:11 PM


Helping LNA with this topic
Phat in Message 11 writes:
So is this a philosophical discussion or a scientific one?
LamarkNewAge in Message 12 writes:
This would be a good place to discuss metaphysical-related events, like miracles and the supernatural.
Percy in Message 13 writes:
Why do you think miracles and the supernatural are part of metaphysics?
LamarkNewAge in Message 16 writes:
Miracles and creation and the supernatural are part of the metaphysical sphere of debate.
I noted that this topic was moved from the Coffee House to the "Is It Science" thread...perhaps to distinguish faith and belief from philosophy in general.
Now I am going to reintroduce Theos questions.
Theodoric in Message 4 writes:
Define metaphysical world.
How are LSD experiments relevant?
Define UFOs. Source for Brennan, Clapper assertions? If true, why would that be relevant?
Define reality.
So here we go.
As a side note, I can see why you wanted a more relaxed Coffee House atmosphere, but lets go with the Admins framework of Is It Science?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-13-2024 9:11 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Taq, posted 04-17-2024 11:14 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 30 by Theodoric, posted 04-17-2024 12:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 51 of 143 (917881)
04-19-2024 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ChatGPT
04-18-2024 7:58 PM


Re: First: I want the EvC supernaturally obsessed to air obsessions HERE
Wow?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by ChatGPT, posted 04-18-2024 7:58 PM ChatGPT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ChatGPT, posted 04-19-2024 10:39 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 55 of 143 (917898)
04-19-2024 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ChatGPT
04-19-2024 10:39 AM


Re: First: I want the EvC supernaturally obsessed to air obsessions HERE
I did not coin the phrase. Perhaps I need to edit my heading.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ChatGPT, posted 04-19-2024 10:39 AM ChatGPT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ChatGPT, posted 04-19-2024 10:39 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 61 by Admin, posted 04-19-2024 5:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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