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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 511 of 537 (917452)
04-08-2024 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 509 by Phat
04-08-2024 10:50 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Phat in Message 509 writes:
As you ponder the wonder of the Sun being eclipsed by the moon and how the Sun itself is simply one of trillions of stars potentially existing, perhaps you can understand our (primitive) belief that matter was at one time initiated and did *not* always exist.
I cannot see how the Universe today having trillions of stars and probably quadrillions of planets and all sorts of other matter and various fields, leads to a belief that it did or did not exist in the distant past. Observations give us many clues about Universe and how it has changed over time, but watching religious people jump to conclusions that are not supported by the observational evidence is just a huge bewildering puzzle to me.
I hope you and your wife have a relaxing yet exciting trip and that you feel better.
Thank you!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Phat, posted 04-08-2024 10:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 512 of 537 (917453)
04-08-2024 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 505 by candle2
04-08-2024 9:16 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
quote:
I get a chuckle when reading Paulk's reply concerning
the fulfillment of these predictions.
Which says almost all we need to know. You can’t offer any serious defense of your claims. You just laugh at the truth.
quote:
The guy has a deep hate for Jesus, and this hate alters
his cognitive reasoning. He hates Jesus because Satan
has painted an extreme negative image of Him.
And this silly fantasy says the rest.
Now how about you actually address the topic? Phat managed it. He even got it right. Which is more than you or ICANT have managed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by candle2, posted 04-08-2024 9:16 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 513 of 537 (917464)
04-08-2024 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 508 by Phat
04-08-2024 10:38 AM


Re: Topic Refocus
Off topic and irrelevant

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Phat, posted 04-08-2024 10:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 514 of 537 (917465)
04-08-2024 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 509 by Phat
04-08-2024 10:50 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Off topic and irrelevant

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Phat, posted 04-08-2024 10:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 515 of 537 (917484)
04-09-2024 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 507 by Percy
04-08-2024 10:03 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Percy, you stated:
"Please proceed with your evidence and arguments that
the historical Jesus created the universe."
***It is accepted that Jesus existed, just as the NT stated.
It is also true that the OT prophesied the birth of Jesus.
And is true that the OT told us in advance where He was
to be born.
There were many OT prophecies concerning Jesus that
were fulfilled in the NT.
It is also true that Jesus was the God of the OT. He was
the One who led the Israelites out of Egypt. He was the
One who wrote the 10 Commaments on stone with His
Finger.
The NT states that Jesus was the One to create the
universe and all that is in it (there is no know way that
physical, material objects spontaneously come into
existence out of nothing).
There is no science, nor are there scientists, that can
even remotely explain this. It defies logic.
The Bible has been right about everything else. With this
record of success, it is impossible to summarily dismiss
other claims that it makes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by Percy, posted 04-08-2024 10:03 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 11:36 AM candle2 has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 516 of 537 (917485)
04-09-2024 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 515 by candle2
04-09-2024 11:18 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
candle2 in Message 515 writes:
It is also true that Jesus was the God of the OT. He was the One who led the Israelites out of Egypt. He was the One who wrote the 10 Commaments on stone with His Finger.
And yet it doesn't say any of that in the old testament. The Jews who wrote the old testament didn't mention Jesus once.
candle2 in Message 515 writes:
There is no science, nor are there scientists, that can even remotely explain this. It defies logic.
That's a very common response when scientists are expected to explain imaginary fictional stories, because there is no science. It defies logic that you would expect that.
candle2 in Message 515 writes:
The Bible has been right about everything else. With this record of success, it is impossible to summarily dismiss other claims that it makes.
You really do seem delusional!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by candle2, posted 04-09-2024 11:18 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by candle2, posted 04-09-2024 3:26 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 518 by candle2, posted 04-09-2024 3:36 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 519 by candle2, posted 04-09-2024 4:07 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 517 of 537 (917502)
04-09-2024 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Tanypteryx
04-09-2024 11:36 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Tanypteryx, you stated:
"And yet it doesn't say any of that in the old testament.
The Jews who wrote the old testament didn't mention
Jesus once."
***I have shown on this board several times that Jesus
was also the God of the OT.
I would be willing to do it again, but only if one is interested.
Right now I will post just one proof that Jesus was the God
of the OT.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1. Moreover brethren I do not want you to be unaware
that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed
through the sea.
2. All were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the
sea.
3.All ate the same spiritual food.
4. And all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank
of that spiritual Rock that followed them, AND THAT
ROCK WAS CHRIST.
Jesus (at that time He was the Word) was the member
of the God Family who went before the escaping Israelites
in a cloud.
When the Israelites were sandwiched between the Red Sea
and Pharoah's army, the cloud (Jesus) moved from in
front of them to behind them, between the Israelites and
Pharoah's army.
Paul plainly tells us this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 11:36 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 5:19 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 518 of 537 (917504)
04-09-2024 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Tanypteryx
04-09-2024 11:36 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Tanypteryx, you wrote:
"You really do seem delusional!"
***If you truly want yo see a delusional person, go stare
in the mirror.
While there, and while staring at yourself say "I am kin to
Chimps and warthog. I am no different than them."
Also say, I believe, I do believe, that I, my wife, and my
kids are proof that a frog actually turned in a man."
I do believe in that fairly tale that a frog turned into a
prince.
If you do this, and you don't feel completely stupid, rest
assured that you are delusional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 11:36 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 5:13 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 523 by dwise1, posted 04-09-2024 6:36 PM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 519 of 537 (917509)
04-09-2024 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Tanypteryx
04-09-2024 11:36 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Tanypteryx, you wrote:
"That's a very common response when scientists are
expected to explain imaginary fictional stories, because
there is no science. It defies logic that you would expect
that."
***You need to reread my statement. I stated that neither
science nor scientists have any knowledge that would
explain how the universe and everything in it come into
being out of absolutely nothing.
To assume that this happened is not science.
Nature (natural things) do not come into existence out of
nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 11:36 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 5:08 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 520 of 537 (917521)
04-09-2024 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by candle2
04-09-2024 4:07 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
candle2 in Message 519 writes:
You need to reread my statement. I stated that neither science nor scientists have any knowledge that would explain how the universe and everything in it come into being out of absolutely nothing.
And I stated that scientists wouldn't bother to explain that, because it is an imaginary fiction.
candle2 in Message 519 writes:
To assume that this happened is not science.
That is why scientists do not assume that happened.
candle2 in Message 519 writes:
Nature (natural things) do not come into existence out of nothing.
You have not presented any evidence that supports this assumption.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by candle2, posted 04-09-2024 4:07 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 521 of 537 (917523)
04-09-2024 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by candle2
04-09-2024 3:36 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
candle2 in Message 518 writes:
If you do this, and you don't feel completely stupid, rest assured that you are delusional.
I feel completely comfortable being classified as and animal and as a vertebrate and as a mammal. I am ashamed and embarrassed that the Homo sapiens species includes rapists and mass murderers.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by candle2, posted 04-09-2024 3:36 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 522 of 537 (917525)
04-09-2024 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by candle2
04-09-2024 3:26 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
candle2 in Message 517 writes:
I have shown on this board several times that Jesus was also the God of the OT.
No, you didn't. All you did was make assertions based on fictional accounts.
candle2 in Message 517 writes:
I would be willing to do it again, but only if one is interested.
Please don't, it's nothing but imaginary, fictional, bullshit.
candle2 in Message 517 writes:
Paul plainly tells us this.
Another imaginary fictional character.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by candle2, posted 04-09-2024 3:26 PM candle2 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5974
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 523 of 537 (917537)
04-09-2024 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by candle2
04-09-2024 3:36 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
What the hell are you talking about?
***If you truly want yo see a delusional person, go stare
in the mirror.

While there, and while staring at yourself say "I am kin to
Chimps and warthog. I am no different than them."
Why would you expect him to say such a stupid thing? Why would you expect any thinking person to say such a stupid thing?
The only people who would ever think that anyone would say such a stupid thing would be A STUPID LYING CREATIONIST!
Are we related to chimps and warthogs (and all other mammals for that matter)? Yes, obviously! Are we no different than them? Of course we are different, obviously! What the hell is wrong with you, you STUPID LYING CREATIONIST?
Why are you incapable of any action other than lying?
Also say, I believe, I do believe, that I, my wife, and my
kids are proof that a frog actually turned in a man."
That's even more stupid and utterly false! WHY DO YOU INSIST ON INCESSANT LYING?
Nobody says that humans descended from frogs, EXCEPT FOR STUPID LYING CREATIONISTS. Besides, it makes absolutely no sense at all! Evolution clearly teaches that all descendants of frogs will still be frogs! NO SPECIES CAN EVER EVOLVE OUT OF ITS CLADE!.
WHY DO YOU INSIST ON INCESSANT LYING? Were you always a pathological liar, or is it the corrupting influence of your false religion that has driven you to such utter debasement and depravity?
And on top of that, everything you post is utterly stupid. Complete idiocy!
Seriously, your testimony to us is a warning to avoid your false religion completely. If you truly believe that anything you have posted has any merit at all, then it is you who are delusional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by candle2, posted 04-09-2024 3:36 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by Admin, posted 04-09-2024 7:51 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 525 by candle2, posted 04-10-2024 4:53 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13082
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 524 of 537 (917539)
04-09-2024 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by dwise1
04-09-2024 6:36 PM


Moderator Feedback
Probably over the top.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by dwise1, posted 04-09-2024 6:36 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 525 of 537 (917574)
04-10-2024 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by dwise1
04-09-2024 6:36 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Dwise, God gave Adam the responsibility to care for His
creation, as well as the ability to understand it.
There is an order to the the world. There are laws of nature
that were established by the Creator. These law are
constant.
The mere fact that these laws are constant forms the
basics for science and experimentation.
There is logic to everything that God does. Logic is not
made up of matter. Logic cannot evolve, nor can it
decrease.
Creationists deny the Creator, but they rest their beliefs
on this very foundation.
If these laws were determined by an evolutionary
processes they would be evolving, changing.
But they are stable. And they always have been.
Genesis 8:22 tells us this:
"While the earth remains, seed time and harvest, cold
and heat, winter and summer, and day and night shall
not cease."
The universe and its laws are being upheld by God and
His Son. Hebrews 1:3.
Without Him upholding His Creation it would crumble,
and fall into decay.
Things that are out of order never evolve into a state of
order. The exact opposite is true.
The supposedly uneducated men who wrote the Holy
Bible understood this. This is why Paul states that God
is upholding it.
If He were not doing so it would crumble and decay.
God is upholding it is the reason we are able to perform
experiments and make predictions.
If you believe that your brain is nothing but the by-product
of pond scum, why would it matter what I think?
Why be so defensive of a theory that has no evidence.
I believe that you know God exists. I really do. But, as
Romans 1:18-20 states, you suppress the truth.
God's creation and its laws proves this to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by dwise1, posted 04-09-2024 6:36 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by Taq, posted 04-10-2024 6:19 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 527 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 7:24 AM candle2 has replied
 Message 529 by Capt Stormfield, posted 04-13-2024 10:20 PM candle2 has not replied

  
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