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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 389 of 536 (916836)
03-14-2024 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by AZPaul3
03-14-2024 12:49 AM


Re: The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
Moose doesn't comment much nor stir the waters, but he is a valued admin and one to respect.

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 Message 388 by AZPaul3, posted 03-14-2024 12:49 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 390 of 536 (916837)
03-14-2024 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by Minnemooseus
03-13-2024 9:17 PM


Re: The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
We should have just stuck to the Title: Did Jesus Create The Universe? Thats a YES in my mind. This whole "Historical" mumbo jumbo is simply an attempt by satan and his minions to discredit the Bible.
I think ICANT wanted to rope the skeptics in, but he then abandoned his efforts when the heat was turned up.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 393 of 536 (916870)
03-15-2024 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Omnivorous
03-14-2024 7:45 AM


Re: The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
Omni writes:
I'm sticking with the universe created Jesus. Maybe.
That's an Omni answer! I would rather see you guys being honest than convincing (or conned). God, if God exists will use many attempts to reach you. (Yes, it's my belief) No one will ever be able to say that they never knew or had a chance. Acceptance is free will as is rejection.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 397 of 536 (916911)
03-16-2024 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by Rahvin
03-16-2024 1:02 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Tany writes:
This is supposed to be an entity capable of creating a planet and hearing all my thoughts, but it cannot communicate other than by imitating natural phenomena (give me a sign), really?
How do Dragonflies "communicate with you besides the objective evidence that you see?
This reminds me of a scripture.
Rom 1:18-23 writes:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities- eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Percy writes:
If he does anything at all his acts are indistinguishable from the physical laws of nature.
I want to emphasize that I do not want to believe in a God of wrath, nor do I believe that humans deserve to be treated like the Palestinians of Gaza or the Ukrainians under assault from Russia. You will hear a lot of doom-and-gloom sermons and preaching over the next few years, and it will reinforce your observations concerning Biblical Christians and their hypocrisy. I believe that much of the wrath of God will be directed more at the church and the state of Israel than it will towards non-believers. To purify a jewel or precious material, great heat is often required.
Look, I don't want the world we live in to get worse and worse any more than any of you do. And to be fair, I'm not trying to get you to believe as I believe. All I am trying to do is share my perspective(s) at this forum that I have been a member of since 2003. My blood sugars are down lately and I have not gambled for several months. I still believe that really tough times are ahead for humanity, but I trust that it is a necessary part of the purification process. The Gold that I am talking about in this instance is each one of you.
Prov 22:1-4 writes:
A good name is more desirable than great riches;
to be esteemed is better than silver or gold.
2 Rich and poor have this in common:
The LORD is the Maker of them all.
3 A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge,
but the simple keep going and suffer for it.
4 Humility and the fear of the LORD
bring wealth and honor and life.
Each person in this world is unique. Each of us has a story and a history. Each of us thinks differently as well.
Rahvin writes:
Nothing happened "between" me and god, because there is no such thing as a god. Just as nothing happened between you and the tooth fairy, or Santa Claus, or the monster that lived under your bed.

I simply realized that I had no factual basis for my belief...and that was enough to make me no longer be convinced. It wasn't as abrupt as that sounds, but that's the heart of what happened.

I value rationality and critical thinking. None of us have perfectly accurate knowledge of the world we live in - far from it. We all have a "map" in our brains of how the world is. Those maps affect how we interact with the world - if I believe a car is coming, I'll wait before I cross the street. If I don't believe a car is coming, I might cross right away. Because our "maps" affect how we interact with the world, I want my "map" to accurately reflect the true territory of the real world as closely as possible. There are methods we can use to improve the accuracy and precision of our maps, and I try to use those.
When calibrating your map, I recommend incorporating data and evidence not just from facts, numbers, and equations but from the people whom you meet daily and who are part of your life. There are many trolls and many con artists, but occasionally you may find a jewel. May we all be jewels to each other rather than rocks.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 399 of 536 (916913)
03-16-2024 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Percy
03-16-2024 10:01 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
I am getting a chuckle reading some of his posts for the first time. I wonder what happened to him?

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 Message 400 by Omnivorous, posted 03-16-2024 10:33 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 401 of 536 (916915)
03-16-2024 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by Omnivorous
03-16-2024 10:33 AM


McFall in 2002...before my time
Really? State or National?
AddbyEdit: I highly doubt he was of political mind!
Message 12
He was not stupid by any means. Just complicated.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 412 of 536 (916940)
03-17-2024 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Omnivorous
03-17-2024 12:47 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Omni:
This world can trace its roots to...
This "world" means the people. A Universe can no more trace its origin than can a planet. We are talking people. Philosophically, can a "tree" trace its roots? Its origin?
John 15:1-7 writes:
15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
Metaphorically, the root is either matter or mind.
Jesus claims the origin. Science points towards the matter. Humanity and its collective "mind" oppose the idea of a divine mind. It's all mind over matter. If one does not mind, it does not matter!
Intelligent Design would point to mind over matter, yet lack objective evidence.
Secular science objectively points towards matter (materialistic determinism) yet have no mind over their own brain matter.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 423 of 536 (916954)
03-17-2024 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by AZPaul3
03-17-2024 5:00 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Lemme guess! You were made out of star stuff? Silly materialist!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by AZPaul3, posted 03-17-2024 5:00 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 426 of 536 (916957)
03-18-2024 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 425 by AZPaul3
03-17-2024 10:46 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Mind over Matter makes more sense to me than Matter being eternal and evolving into Mind

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 432 of 536 (916965)
03-18-2024 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 430 by dwise1
03-18-2024 9:39 AM


EvC
I enjoyed those videos! Thanks for introducing me to Clint.
Speaking of Clint...
quote:
"As you get older, you're not afraid of doubt. Doubt isn't running the show. You take out all the self-agonizing.~Clint Eastwood

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 433 of 536 (916966)
03-18-2024 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by candle2
03-17-2024 4:44 PM


Candle In The Wind
Do you believe that Hell was created for humans?
I don't.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 439 of 536 (916979)
03-18-2024 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by AZPaul3
03-18-2024 2:54 PM


Gaia: Mother Of Turds
Well she is the "mother" of Uranus..which explains the whole butt sniffing thing.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 508 of 536 (917449)
04-08-2024 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 507 by Percy
04-08-2024 10:03 AM


Topic Refocus
Percy writes:
Please proceed with your evidence and arguments that the historical Jesus created the universe.
To reiterate: Historical Jesus
Wiki:
The term "historical Jesus" refers to the life and teachings of Jesus as interpreted through critical historical methods, in contrast to what are traditionally religious interpretations It also considers the historical and cultural contexts in which Jesus lived. Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure, and the idea that Jesus was a mythical figure has been consistently rejected by the scholarly consensus as a fringe theory. Scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the biblical accounts, with only two events being supported by nearly universal scholarly consensus: Jesus was baptized and Jesus was crucified.
Based on this working definition, the "Historical Jesus" (was) widely considered to have once existed, been baptized,and was crucified. Thus the short answer is NO. The Jesus of Christian faith and belief was (and is) Gods eternal character. A Christian believes that God always existed and Trinitarians believe that Jesus (as human character) was in the beginning with the Father...long before the point in time where He was physically born.
Thus we believe that the Jesus of Christian faith and tradition did initiate(create) the universe as we know it. Personally I believe that Jesus initiated matter as we know it. Beyond that simple belief, I'll let Cosmologists explain how the universe potentially evolved.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 509 of 536 (917450)
04-08-2024 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 504 by Tanypteryx
04-07-2024 1:55 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Tany writes:
Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe?
Without knowing Candles beliefs, I would guess that his answer to all of your questions is "after".. I don't think he really accepts the theory of a "Historical Jesus". (as I expounded on in my Wiki quote)
As you ponder the wonder of the Sun being eclipsed by the moon and how the Sun itself is simply one of trillions of stars potentially existing, perhaps you can understand our (primitive) belief that matter was at one time initiated and did *not* always exist. I hope you and your wife have a relaxing yet exciting trip and that you feel better.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 510 of 536 (917451)
04-08-2024 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 509 by Phat
04-08-2024 10:50 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Well Tangle, I also hope that you get an opportunity to enjoy the solar eclipse in between your continued banter with (as you would phrase it) us nutters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Phat, posted 04-08-2024 10:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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