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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 465 of 536 (917164)
03-24-2024 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by PaulK
03-24-2024 10:49 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Paulk, you wrote:
"Don’t forget to include that actual test of the prophecies
and where they appear in the a Bible so that we can read
the context."
***You are right, Paulk. And I should gave done that. I will
quote the OT prophecy, and where it was fulfilled in the NT.
It might take me a little to to look up and cross reference.
It might take me a day, two at the most, but I will list them.
I would do it sooner, but I am helping a friend move.
I will try to post them tomorrow. I will add other info to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by PaulK, posted 03-24-2024 10:49 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by PaulK, posted 03-24-2024 5:32 PM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 467 of 536 (917175)
03-25-2024 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 464 by PaulK
03-24-2024 10:49 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Paulk, OT prophecies and NT fulfillment.
*Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem. OT, Micah 5:2--NT,
Matthew 2:4-6.
*Jesus would begin His ministry in Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2,
Matthew 4:12-17.
*The Scepter shall not depart from Judah. Genesis 49:10,
Luke 3:33.
*They would cast lots for the clothes of Jesus. Psalms 22:18,
John 19:23-24.
*Jesus would teach in parables. Psalms 78:1-2, Mark 4:2;
Luke 8:10 and Matthew 13:34-35.
*the parables of Jesus were used to hide the their true
meaning from all except His elect. Isaiah 6:9-10, Matthew
13:13-15 and Mark 4:11,13.
*Jesus betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:13-13,
Matthew 27:6-10.
*Jesus would remain quiet before His accusers. Psalms
38:12-13. Matthew 27:12-14.
I will post more a little later.
*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by PaulK, posted 03-24-2024 10:49 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Rahvin, posted 03-25-2024 11:54 AM candle2 has replied
 Message 469 by PaulK, posted 03-25-2024 12:16 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 471 by Taq, posted 03-25-2024 1:15 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 472 of 536 (917191)
03-25-2024 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by PaulK
03-24-2024 10:49 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Paulk, here are a few more:
*Passover Lamb was to be w/o blemish. Exodus 12:5.
Hebrews 9:14.
*Jesus was our Passover Lamb. (1Corinthians 5:7).Not a
born of His was to broken. Exodus 12:46. John 19:31-36.
*Jesus was to be forsakenby His Father. Psalms 22:1.
Matthew 27:46.
*Jesus was to be the mediator of a new Covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31. Matthew 26:28. Hebrews 8:6-13.
*God would call His Son out of Egypt. Hosea11:1.
Matthew 2:14-15.
*Jesus would have a forerunner before Him. Isaiah 40:3-4.
John 1:23.
*His friends an followers would forsake Him. Psalms 31:11.
Mark :24:50.
*His body would not see decay. Psalms 16:9-11.
Acts 2:31.
*His crucifiers would give Him gall and wine to drink.
Psalms 69:21. Matthew 27:34.
*Jesus would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14. Luke 1:34-35.
Matthew 1:23.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by PaulK, posted 03-24-2024 10:49 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by PaulK, posted 03-25-2024 3:55 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 478 of 536 (917212)
03-26-2024 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by PaulK
03-24-2024 5:32 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Paulk, don't play dumb. The men who wrote the NT were
not idiots. There is no way that they would give live to
follow a made up God.
These same Apostles and Disciples of Jesus ran when he
was arrested. They denied that they even knew Him.
These were Jews, and the majority of them do not accept
Jesus as the Messiah today. It was the same back then.
These same men, the one who ran, were hiding in a room
when Jesus appeared to them after His crucifixion and
resurrection.
Why were they hiding? They were hiding for fear of the
Jews. John 20:19.
Joseph of Arimathea took the body of Jesus secretly for
fear of the Jews. John 19:38.
Something miraculous happened that caused these men
who feared for their lives to become emboldened, and
face the wrath of the Sanhedrin.
Nobody is going to risk their life for a made-up scheme,
which they know is nor true.
There were many Jews still alive when the Disciples of
Christ were making their claims. If it were not true, they
would have said so.
No one who is making up a god to follow is going to have
their god beaten, spat on, ridiculed, and nailed to a stake.
And, no follower of this made-up god is going to record,
for all to see, that he ran and hid like a frightened child.
Paul was a hostile witness to Jesus. Paul was responsible
for tracking down Christians and having the beaten or
killed.
Something happened to this man that changed his entire
life and outlook. He voluntarily became a follower of Christ.
And as such, he suffered numerous beatings, as well as
spending a good amount of time in cold, dark dungeons.
The authors of the Bible have as much authority, even more
so, than any authors who have ever lived.
Jesus was born in a tiny, out of the way, town that most of
the world didn't even know existed. And, believe it or not
Paulk, there were no cell phones, newspapers, or internet.
To all but His followers it was not an issue.
God is not trying to save the world during this present age.
He is only calling His elect, those who will be part of His
government, and who will rule with Him, when He returns
to set up His Kingdom.
I want to be in His Kingdom.
You want only to believe that you leached from a rock.
And, that you have ancestors who were chimp like creatures.
You know deep down that Jesus is the Creator. The Holy
Bible serves ad a witness to this.
Without the Creator there would be nothing. Nothing is
what rocks dream about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by PaulK, posted 03-24-2024 5:32 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by PaulK, posted 03-26-2024 1:48 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 480 of 536 (917216)
03-26-2024 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by Rahvin
03-25-2024 11:54 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Rahvin, you wrote:
"There will be wars and rumors of wars" is like predicting
that tomorrow is Tuesday."
*I never said anything about wars and rumors of wars.
Tomorrow will be Wednesday.
The God of the Bible will give everyone who has ever lived
the opportunity to receive eternal life. However, it will be
at His appointed time.
He will offer the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc, their
opportunity to receive eternal life.
Anyone who finds faults with God, and His generosity,
needs to seek some psychological help.
The God of the Bible will offer everyone who has ever lived
the opportunity to become members of the God family.
As the sons of God, therefore God Beings ourself, we
will have powers and intellect much greater than what
Satan now has.
Anyone who finds fault with God's plans for us needs a
reality check.
God does not owe us anything. Everything that we receive
from Him is due to His great love for us.
Evolutionists reject the true God. They much rather believe
that they leached from a rock.
According to them, everything is due to random chance,
even their brains and minds.
The problem with this concept is simply how can they possibly
trust their minds?
They reduce themselves to mere animals, who sniff each
others butts and pick lead off of each others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Rahvin, posted 03-25-2024 11:54 AM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Omnivorous, posted 03-26-2024 6:07 PM candle2 has replied
 Message 482 by Rahvin, posted 03-26-2024 7:49 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 487 of 536 (917381)
04-04-2024 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by Omnivorous
03-26-2024 6:07 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Omnivorous, you wrote:
"The fact that I am an animal does not diminish me,
but your arrogance diminishes you."
*** Wrong it diminishes you. Dogs are animals. You can
put a collar around their neck, and you can teach them to
to fetch; to roll over; or, bark.
Is this the class that you put yourself in.
I have several cats and two dogs in my house. There are
at least a dozen cats outside my house.
God sends these unwanted animals (the vast majority
have been dumped) to my wife and me because He
knows that we will feed them.
The females we have fixed by a vet at our expense. The
vet gives us a discount, but it is still rather expensive, more
than $200 each.
The cats and dogs know that we (humans) are superior
to them. The differences between humans and animals
is so vast that only an idiot would make a comparison.
God appointed us to be caretakers of His animals. And,
He expects us to do so.
Some individuals who compare themselves to animals
do a disservice to animals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Omnivorous, posted 03-26-2024 6:07 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by Admin, posted 04-04-2024 2:23 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 489 by Omnivorous, posted 04-04-2024 5:29 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 490 of 536 (917390)
04-05-2024 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 477 by PaulK
03-26-2024 9:53 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Paulk, you wrote:
"candle2 alleges otherwise - making the same error ICANT
did, of failing to understand the concept of the Historical
Jesus.

And he has the same inability to make a rational case.

Still, I think exposing this stuff as the nonsense it is has
some value."
***What some do not understand is that there is Historical
evidence for the existence of Jesus. There are sources
outside of the Bible that speaks of a person known as
Jesus--Christ.
I have been extremely nusy the past several weeks, but I
will post these sources by the 13th of this month.
I appreciate the Administrator for his patience. This is an
important issue.
The Bible states Jesus created the universe and all that is
in it. Evidence that Jesus actually existed, and that miracles
were attributed to Him, although circumstantial, exists.
There is no evidence that the universe came about by
chance. There is no known mechanism that can answer
even the slightest possibility that all we see and observe
was created by nothing.
I have shown, on numerous posts, that the Jews are
merely one of the twelve tribes of Israel. The Jews,
descendants of Judah, received the promise that the
Messiah would come through them.
Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was both a Jew and an Israelite.
Descendants of the others tribes are Israelites, but they
are not Jews.
The prophet Ezekiel was a Jew. He wrote the book of
Ezekiel 130-146 years after the Northetn ten tribes of
Israel were conquered and deported from their land by
the Assyrians in 721 B.C.
Ezekiel, although a Jew, was commanded by God, to be a
Watchman for the House of Israel, especially the tribes of
Ephraim and Manasseh.
These two brothers, sons of Joseph, out of all the tribes,
received the birthright blessings. Genesis 49:22-26.
Deuteronomy 33: 13-17.
Ezekiel, a Jew, was appointed a watchman for the House of
Israel. Ezekiel 3:17.
Much of Ezekiel concerns endtime prophecy for the the
House of Israel. A watchman warns.
The United States and Great Britain are made up primarily
of Manasseh and GB, including Scotland, Canade, Australia,
New Zealand.
Ezekiel 7 contains a prophecy about what is happening in
America and GB at this very minute.
Because we have fallen so far from God, God is now
punishing us.
He has promised to bring the worst of the Heather's
(Gentiles) against us. They are to get above us. They
are to possess our homes, and rule over us.
But this is only the beginning.
Illegal immigrants who come to America are given
cell phones, debits cards, food vouchers, free medical
services and education.
They are put into expensive motels, often costing more
than $300 per person, per night. Americans pay for
these grown men and women with our taxes.
In NYC illegal immigrants receive benefits that amounts
to $144,000 per year.
There are immigrants, on Youtube, waving around wads
of cash, laughing at how pathetically stupid Americans are.
For the past 3 plus years more than 25,000 illegal immigrants
have openly come into America every day.
Read all if Ezekiel 7. It gets to the point that we will throw
our gold and silver into the street.
Also, squatters (II) have moved into vacant homes, and
landlords are forbidden to remove them.
Illegal immigrants have certainly gotten above us.
One could deny this, but that does not change what
Ezekiel promised would happen to us.
Fulfilled prophecy is evidence. One will not see Russia
or China behaving like this. Only a supernatural power
can affect a nation's mind to this degree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by PaulK, posted 03-26-2024 9:53 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by PaulK, posted 04-05-2024 9:11 AM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 492 of 536 (917420)
04-06-2024 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Percy
03-26-2024 8:46 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Percy, you wrote:
"I thought the suggestion to follow the traditional standards
of history when discussing what the historical Jesus
actually did was a good one. I don't see how candle2's review
of Biblical prophecy ties into that."
***I take it that both you and Paulk are so accustomed to
making fulfilled prophecies that it is of no significance
when someone else does it
I am a little embarrassed to ask either of you which state
my wife and I will be visiting next month, because I know
that noth of you will get it right.
But, just for fun, go ahead and tell me the state.
There are sources outside of the Bible that mention Jesus
or Christ. There are also non-Christians who wrote about
Him, and His followers.
Most scholars believe the historicity of Jesus. And there
are many more who will not deny that He existed. Many
of these who do believe that He did exist do not believe
that He was God. But, this is about historicity.
Non of us who are alive today know for certain that many
recorded by history as being alive centuries ago actually
existed or not.
Did Marco Polo exist? Did Tiberious Caesar exist? How
would one know?
How would one explain the incredible expansion of
Christianity during the first and second century A.D., if
a man known as Jesus the Christ never existed.
As I have said, there are a number of references to One
known as Jesus, or the Christ, is mentioned outside of
the Bible.
One such is by Lucian Samosata. Lucian lived from 120-
180 A.D.
Lucian was a satarist, who was scornful of Christians. In
his work "The Passing Peregrinus", he wrote about Jesus
and His followers.
To briefly summarize what he wrote:
*Christians worshipped Jesus as a God.
*Jesus was crucified for what He taught.
*Jesus started Christianity.
*His Disciples believed His teachings.
*His Disciples referred to fellow believers as "brothers."
*His Discipkes believed they could gain immortality.
Lucian was angry that Christians defied the gods of
Greece.
There would have been sons and grandsons of eye-
witnesses to the death of Christ when Lucian was born.
WW1 ended more than a hundred years ago, and there
are son and grandsons of those who fought in it still
living.
A hundred or 150 years after the passing of an event is
not the long.
My great grandfather was a Confederate soldier. His son,
my grandfather was born the year the Civil War ended.
I only have time to post one or so per day, but I will post
more. Some from the 1st Century.
More has been written about Jesus than has been recorded
of the vast majority of men in history.
It takes faith to believe in them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Percy, posted 03-26-2024 8:46 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by Percy, posted 04-07-2024 7:27 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 494 by PaulK, posted 04-07-2024 7:55 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 499 by Theodoric, posted 04-07-2024 10:47 AM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 495 of 536 (917424)
04-07-2024 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by Percy
03-26-2024 8:46 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Percy, another non-Biblical source for the authenticity of
Jesus comes from Roman historian and Senator, Tacitus.
Remember that taking the word of anyone who wrote
centuries ago is subjective. This goes for all of them,
including the pagans and the secular.
Tacitus in his book "Annals of Imperial Rome", book 15,
page 44, records that Christ is the origin of Christians.
He records that Nero, in A.D. 64, falsely blamed persons
called Christians for the fire that destroyed much of Rome.
Tacitus states that Christ (Christus) was put to death by
Panties Pilate.
Several other facts that Tacitus records includes:
*There was a sizable number of Christian in Rome in the
first century.
*Nero persecuted Christians.
*It was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews.
*Pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome
and its origin in Roman Judea.
"When Tacitus wrote history, if he considered information
not entirely reliable, he normally wrote some indication to
his readers."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Percy, posted 03-26-2024 8:46 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2024 9:05 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 497 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-07-2024 9:09 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 498 by Percy, posted 04-07-2024 9:31 AM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 501 of 536 (917433)
04-07-2024 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Percy
03-26-2024 8:46 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Percy, another non-Biblical source concerning Christ and
Christians was recorded by Pliny the Younger, Roman
Governor of Bithynia.
Pliny wrote to Emperor Trajan asking for his counsel on
dealing with the early Christian community.
Pliny conducted trials of suspected Christians who
appeared before Him. It is suspected that they refused to
acknowledge and worship Roman gods.
In any case, after three chances to show their innocence
they were executed.
Pliny went on to say that investigations often revealed
harmless practices. However, Pliny considered them to be
depraved, and filled with excessive superstition.
Pliny was concerned that Christian gatherings could
serve as a potential starting point for sedition.
This is an abbreviated reply of Pliny and Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Percy, posted 03-26-2024 8:46 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by Percy, posted 04-07-2024 1:46 PM candle2 has replied
 Message 503 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2024 1:50 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 504 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-07-2024 1:55 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 505 of 536 (917443)
04-08-2024 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 502 by Percy
04-07-2024 1:46 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Percy, you stated:
"For this discussion it is assumed that Jesus was a
historical personage."
***This is exactly the point that ICANT, and several others
are making.
Jesus was and still is a alive.
The Bible confirms this. Since the Bible is right about Jesus
living and breathing, we must not readily dismiss the other
claims that His Apostles and Prophets made about Him.
We must also look at the OT prophecies made concerning
Jesus and their actual fulfillment in the NT.
I get a chuckle when reading Paulk's reply concerning
the fulfillment of these predictions.
The guy has a deep hate for Jesus, and this hate alters
his cognitive reasoning. He hates Jesus because Satan
has painted an extreme negative image of Him.
I used to have this same negative image of Him. I had
this image because I allowed others, including pastors,
preachers, etc... to shape my thinking.
God will reveal Himself and His plans for humanity, if one
will seek Him with all their heart--all of it.
To accept that the Bible has been proven right about the
fact that Jesus lived, while denying the rest of what the
Bible teaches, is using false and premeditated logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by Percy, posted 04-07-2024 1:46 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by Tangle, posted 04-08-2024 10:01 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 507 by Percy, posted 04-08-2024 10:03 AM candle2 has replied
 Message 512 by PaulK, posted 04-08-2024 12:36 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 515 of 536 (917484)
04-09-2024 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 507 by Percy
04-08-2024 10:03 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Percy, you stated:
"Please proceed with your evidence and arguments that
the historical Jesus created the universe."
***It is accepted that Jesus existed, just as the NT stated.
It is also true that the OT prophesied the birth of Jesus.
And is true that the OT told us in advance where He was
to be born.
There were many OT prophecies concerning Jesus that
were fulfilled in the NT.
It is also true that Jesus was the God of the OT. He was
the One who led the Israelites out of Egypt. He was the
One who wrote the 10 Commaments on stone with His
Finger.
The NT states that Jesus was the One to create the
universe and all that is in it (there is no know way that
physical, material objects spontaneously come into
existence out of nothing).
There is no science, nor are there scientists, that can
even remotely explain this. It defies logic.
The Bible has been right about everything else. With this
record of success, it is impossible to summarily dismiss
other claims that it makes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by Percy, posted 04-08-2024 10:03 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 11:36 AM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 517 of 536 (917502)
04-09-2024 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Tanypteryx
04-09-2024 11:36 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Tanypteryx, you stated:
"And yet it doesn't say any of that in the old testament.
The Jews who wrote the old testament didn't mention
Jesus once."
***I have shown on this board several times that Jesus
was also the God of the OT.
I would be willing to do it again, but only if one is interested.
Right now I will post just one proof that Jesus was the God
of the OT.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1. Moreover brethren I do not want you to be unaware
that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed
through the sea.
2. All were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the
sea.
3.All ate the same spiritual food.
4. And all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank
of that spiritual Rock that followed them, AND THAT
ROCK WAS CHRIST.
Jesus (at that time He was the Word) was the member
of the God Family who went before the escaping Israelites
in a cloud.
When the Israelites were sandwiched between the Red Sea
and Pharoah's army, the cloud (Jesus) moved from in
front of them to behind them, between the Israelites and
Pharoah's army.
Paul plainly tells us this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 11:36 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 5:19 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 518 of 536 (917504)
04-09-2024 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Tanypteryx
04-09-2024 11:36 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Tanypteryx, you wrote:
"You really do seem delusional!"
***If you truly want yo see a delusional person, go stare
in the mirror.
While there, and while staring at yourself say "I am kin to
Chimps and warthog. I am no different than them."
Also say, I believe, I do believe, that I, my wife, and my
kids are proof that a frog actually turned in a man."
I do believe in that fairly tale that a frog turned into a
prince.
If you do this, and you don't feel completely stupid, rest
assured that you are delusional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 11:36 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 5:13 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 523 by dwise1, posted 04-09-2024 6:36 PM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 519 of 536 (917509)
04-09-2024 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Tanypteryx
04-09-2024 11:36 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Tanypteryx, you wrote:
"That's a very common response when scientists are
expected to explain imaginary fictional stories, because
there is no science. It defies logic that you would expect
that."
***You need to reread my statement. I stated that neither
science nor scientists have any knowledge that would
explain how the universe and everything in it come into
being out of absolutely nothing.
To assume that this happened is not science.
Nature (natural things) do not come into existence out of
nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 11:36 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-09-2024 5:08 PM candle2 has not replied

  
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