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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 481 of 537 (917221)
03-26-2024 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 480 by candle2
03-26-2024 3:24 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
They reduce themselves to mere animals
There are no mere animals. Every animal on this planet is a wonder, one of the only other living things we know in a vast universe.
The fact that I am an animal does not diminish me, but your arrogance diminishes you.
I'm proud of my animal heritage and my entire living animal family. My kin crawled out of the sea. They fought to survive Great Dyings. They survived catastrophes that wiped out dinosaurs and millions of other species
Animal life has a long, well tested provenance. Your God nonsense has lasted for a mere blip of that time.
Gods are what primitive minds dream about.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by candle2, posted 03-26-2024 3:24 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by candle2, posted 04-04-2024 2:15 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 482 of 537 (917223)
03-26-2024 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 480 by candle2
03-26-2024 3:24 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
That's an awful lot of text to completely miss the point and fail to address anything.
If you think that ignoring an argument and preaching will be effective at anything, you are mistaken.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by candle2, posted 03-26-2024 3:24 PM candle2 has not replied

  
ChemEngineer
Junior Member
Posts: 18
From: Irvine CA 92606
Joined: 03-10-2024


Message 483 of 537 (917232)
03-27-2024 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Theodoric
03-12-2024 9:44 PM


Your atheist "intellectuals"
You referred to Christopher Hitchens, a very vocal atheist who.... left his pregnant wife, and betrayed his close friend. Nice. How "moral" and "ethical".
Then there is Ernest Hemingway: "Every thinking man is an atheist."
He put a shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger so that his third wife would find his brains all over their Idaho residence.
How "thoughtful" of Ernie.
Richard Dawkins of "Ridicule them (Christians)! Mock them! With contempt!"
His large American audience cheered and applauded in a very "intellectual" and "rational" manner, of which you would surely approve.
Dawkins had one child, a daughter, demonstrating his failure of the Darwinian Imperative he holds so very close to his hateful heart. In comparison, Osama bin Laden had two dozen or more children.
A graph of per capita income by country versus fertility rate shows the poorest have the most children. Dawkins loses again.
A different graph of the least educated by country versus fertility rate.... can you guess what that shows? RIGHT! Dawkins and Darwin lose yet again, going down to miserable failure of "the fittest" surviving.
Slums are the fastest growing human habitat in the world with some 23% of humanity living in them.
Darwin was dead wrong for many reasons, all of which you reject for reasons you create and modify to suit your goddless agenda.
Incidentally, as Professor John Lennox says, "I don't believe in the god you don't believe in."
<link removed>

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Theodoric, posted 03-12-2024 9:44 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 484 of 537 (917233)
03-27-2024 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by ChemEngineer
03-27-2024 8:38 PM


Re: Your atheist "intellectuals"
This whole post is an irrelevant gish gallop. Address what I posted or do not respond at all.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by ChemEngineer, posted 03-27-2024 8:38 PM ChemEngineer has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(4)
Message 485 of 537 (917240)
03-27-2024 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by ChemEngineer
03-27-2024 8:38 PM


Re: Your atheist "intellectuals"
... Christopher Hitchens ... Ernest Hemingway ...
You do know that ethics and morals, stellar and not-so-stellar, evolved within our ape lineage? You shouldn't be surprised when someone smarter than you also does what you hypocritical fascist rightists' have been doing for decades.
Your hate for the human condition is showing.
Slums are the fastest growing human habitat in the world with some 23% of humanity living in them.
You mean religious slums. Yeah, for all your charity yapping you god types run some of the worst. Ask any of the inhabitants. In the USofA the vast majority will be catholic or baptist. In Iraq/Iran they are vast majority muslim. In India they are vast majority Hindu.
Religion causes slums. And then they do nothing to alleviate the human suffering because from that pain their adherents form and flow. The more the evil that can be spread, the more the offerings in the plate.
Darwin was dead wrong ...
No, he wasn't. We have the science, the facts, the evidence, the reality that show he was quite right. The godless agenda part was just a nice emergent property of the theory.
"I don't believe in the god you don't believe in."
Who cares? We don't. You can believe any fantasy crap you and your priests care to create. And you can espouse as much inhumanity as you want. We're used to religions being bloody evil.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by ChemEngineer, posted 03-27-2024 8:38 PM ChemEngineer has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13082
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 486 of 537 (917248)
03-28-2024 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 483 by ChemEngineer
03-27-2024 8:38 PM


Re: Your atheist "intellectuals"
Please stay on topic. The topic of this thread is The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by ChemEngineer, posted 03-27-2024 8:38 PM ChemEngineer has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 487 of 537 (917381)
04-04-2024 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by Omnivorous
03-26-2024 6:07 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Omnivorous, you wrote:
"The fact that I am an animal does not diminish me,
but your arrogance diminishes you."
*** Wrong it diminishes you. Dogs are animals. You can
put a collar around their neck, and you can teach them to
to fetch; to roll over; or, bark.
Is this the class that you put yourself in.
I have several cats and two dogs in my house. There are
at least a dozen cats outside my house.
God sends these unwanted animals (the vast majority
have been dumped) to my wife and me because He
knows that we will feed them.
The females we have fixed by a vet at our expense. The
vet gives us a discount, but it is still rather expensive, more
than $200 each.
The cats and dogs know that we (humans) are superior
to them. The differences between humans and animals
is so vast that only an idiot would make a comparison.
God appointed us to be caretakers of His animals. And,
He expects us to do so.
Some individuals who compare themselves to animals
do a disservice to animals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Omnivorous, posted 03-26-2024 6:07 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 13082
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 488 of 537 (917382)
04-04-2024 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by candle2
04-04-2024 2:15 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Please stay on topic. The topic of this thread is The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by candle2, posted 04-04-2024 2:15 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 489 of 537 (917383)
04-04-2024 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by candle2
04-04-2024 2:15 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Because you take in strays, which I respect, and because Admin has requested on- topic posts, further I deponeth not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by candle2, posted 04-04-2024 2:15 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 490 of 537 (917390)
04-05-2024 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 477 by PaulK
03-26-2024 9:53 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Paulk, you wrote:
"candle2 alleges otherwise - making the same error ICANT
did, of failing to understand the concept of the Historical
Jesus.

And he has the same inability to make a rational case.

Still, I think exposing this stuff as the nonsense it is has
some value."
***What some do not understand is that there is Historical
evidence for the existence of Jesus. There are sources
outside of the Bible that speaks of a person known as
Jesus--Christ.
I have been extremely nusy the past several weeks, but I
will post these sources by the 13th of this month.
I appreciate the Administrator for his patience. This is an
important issue.
The Bible states Jesus created the universe and all that is
in it. Evidence that Jesus actually existed, and that miracles
were attributed to Him, although circumstantial, exists.
There is no evidence that the universe came about by
chance. There is no known mechanism that can answer
even the slightest possibility that all we see and observe
was created by nothing.
I have shown, on numerous posts, that the Jews are
merely one of the twelve tribes of Israel. The Jews,
descendants of Judah, received the promise that the
Messiah would come through them.
Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was both a Jew and an Israelite.
Descendants of the others tribes are Israelites, but they
are not Jews.
The prophet Ezekiel was a Jew. He wrote the book of
Ezekiel 130-146 years after the Northetn ten tribes of
Israel were conquered and deported from their land by
the Assyrians in 721 B.C.
Ezekiel, although a Jew, was commanded by God, to be a
Watchman for the House of Israel, especially the tribes of
Ephraim and Manasseh.
These two brothers, sons of Joseph, out of all the tribes,
received the birthright blessings. Genesis 49:22-26.
Deuteronomy 33: 13-17.
Ezekiel, a Jew, was appointed a watchman for the House of
Israel. Ezekiel 3:17.
Much of Ezekiel concerns endtime prophecy for the the
House of Israel. A watchman warns.
The United States and Great Britain are made up primarily
of Manasseh and GB, including Scotland, Canade, Australia,
New Zealand.
Ezekiel 7 contains a prophecy about what is happening in
America and GB at this very minute.
Because we have fallen so far from God, God is now
punishing us.
He has promised to bring the worst of the Heather's
(Gentiles) against us. They are to get above us. They
are to possess our homes, and rule over us.
But this is only the beginning.
Illegal immigrants who come to America are given
cell phones, debits cards, food vouchers, free medical
services and education.
They are put into expensive motels, often costing more
than $300 per person, per night. Americans pay for
these grown men and women with our taxes.
In NYC illegal immigrants receive benefits that amounts
to $144,000 per year.
There are immigrants, on Youtube, waving around wads
of cash, laughing at how pathetically stupid Americans are.
For the past 3 plus years more than 25,000 illegal immigrants
have openly come into America every day.
Read all if Ezekiel 7. It gets to the point that we will throw
our gold and silver into the street.
Also, squatters (II) have moved into vacant homes, and
landlords are forbidden to remove them.
Illegal immigrants have certainly gotten above us.
One could deny this, but that does not change what
Ezekiel promised would happen to us.
Fulfilled prophecy is evidence. One will not see Russia
or China behaving like this. Only a supernatural power
can affect a nation's mind to this degree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by PaulK, posted 03-26-2024 9:53 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by PaulK, posted 04-05-2024 9:11 AM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 491 of 537 (917391)
04-05-2024 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by candle2
04-05-2024 8:40 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
quote:
candle2 alleges otherwise - making the same error ICANT
did, of failing to understand the concept of the Historical
Jesus.

And he has the same inability to make a rational case.

Still, I think exposing this stuff as the nonsense it is has
some value."

***What some do not understand is that there is Historical
evidence for the existence of Jesus. There are sources
outside of the Bible that speaks of a person known as
Jesus--Christ.
Which is not at all relevant to anything I said. Though I suppose that I should point out that Christian apologists tend to exaggerate the number of references.
quote:
The Bible states Jesus created the universe and all that is
in it. Evidence that Jesus actually existed, and that miracles
were attributed to Him, although circumstantial, exists.

None of that is historically established.
quote:
The United States and Great Britain are made up primarily
of Manasseh and GB, including Scotland, Canade, Australia,
New Zealand.
I did say to spare me the Anglo Israelite nonsense. Just because you unthinkingly swallow 19th century crank ideas - without bothering to investigate them - doesn’t mean that they are any less laughable than the Book of Mormon.
quote:
Ezekiel 7 contains a prophecy about what is happening in
America and GB at this very minute.

No, it does not. That was intended for Judah.
And your racist ranting is quite definitely off-topic, and certainly nothing to do with fulfilled prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by candle2, posted 04-05-2024 8:40 AM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 492 of 537 (917420)
04-06-2024 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Percy
03-26-2024 8:46 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Percy, you wrote:
"I thought the suggestion to follow the traditional standards
of history when discussing what the historical Jesus
actually did was a good one. I don't see how candle2's review
of Biblical prophecy ties into that."
***I take it that both you and Paulk are so accustomed to
making fulfilled prophecies that it is of no significance
when someone else does it
I am a little embarrassed to ask either of you which state
my wife and I will be visiting next month, because I know
that noth of you will get it right.
But, just for fun, go ahead and tell me the state.
There are sources outside of the Bible that mention Jesus
or Christ. There are also non-Christians who wrote about
Him, and His followers.
Most scholars believe the historicity of Jesus. And there
are many more who will not deny that He existed. Many
of these who do believe that He did exist do not believe
that He was God. But, this is about historicity.
Non of us who are alive today know for certain that many
recorded by history as being alive centuries ago actually
existed or not.
Did Marco Polo exist? Did Tiberious Caesar exist? How
would one know?
How would one explain the incredible expansion of
Christianity during the first and second century A.D., if
a man known as Jesus the Christ never existed.
As I have said, there are a number of references to One
known as Jesus, or the Christ, is mentioned outside of
the Bible.
One such is by Lucian Samosata. Lucian lived from 120-
180 A.D.
Lucian was a satarist, who was scornful of Christians. In
his work "The Passing Peregrinus", he wrote about Jesus
and His followers.
To briefly summarize what he wrote:
*Christians worshipped Jesus as a God.
*Jesus was crucified for what He taught.
*Jesus started Christianity.
*His Disciples believed His teachings.
*His Disciples referred to fellow believers as "brothers."
*His Discipkes believed they could gain immortality.
Lucian was angry that Christians defied the gods of
Greece.
There would have been sons and grandsons of eye-
witnesses to the death of Christ when Lucian was born.
WW1 ended more than a hundred years ago, and there
are son and grandsons of those who fought in it still
living.
A hundred or 150 years after the passing of an event is
not the long.
My great grandfather was a Confederate soldier. His son,
my grandfather was born the year the Civil War ended.
I only have time to post one or so per day, but I will post
more. Some from the 1st Century.
More has been written about Jesus than has been recorded
of the vast majority of men in history.
It takes faith to believe in them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Percy, posted 03-26-2024 8:46 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by Percy, posted 04-07-2024 7:27 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 494 by PaulK, posted 04-07-2024 7:55 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 499 by Theodoric, posted 04-07-2024 10:47 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22621
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 493 of 537 (917422)
04-07-2024 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by candle2
04-06-2024 4:39 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
candle2 in Message 492 writes:
***I take it that both you and Paulk are so accustomed to
making fulfilled prophecies that it is of no significance
when someone else does it
You would take wrong, oh sarcastic one.
Most scholars believe the historicity of Jesus. And there
are many more who will not deny that He existed.
Your first sentence was accurate, your second not. If we're talking about Biblical scholars then very, very few deny the existence of Jesus.
None of us who are alive today know for certain that many
recorded by history as being alive centuries ago actually
existed or not.
Agreed.
Did Marco Polo exist? Did Tiberious Caesar exist? How
would one know?
Funny that you would choose two people for whom a great deal of evidence of their reality exists. Why not use William Tell and King Arthur as examples?
How would one explain the incredible expansion of
Christianity during the first and second century A.D., if
a man known as Jesus the Christ never existed.
Paul.
More has been written about Jesus than has been recorded
of the vast majority of men in history.
It takes faith to believe in them.
Yep.
Will you be getting to the part about where the historical Jesus created the universe soon?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by candle2, posted 04-06-2024 4:39 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 494 of 537 (917423)
04-07-2024 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by candle2
04-06-2024 4:39 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
quote:
***I take it that both you and Paulk are so accustomed to
making fulfilled prophecies that it is of no significance
when someone else does it
I guess you’re so used to people believing falsehoods that you can’t imagine anyone seeing through yours. You didn’t offer anything worthwhile in fulfilled prophecies.
quote:
I am a little embarrassed to ask either of you which state
my wife and I will be visiting next month, because I know
that noth of you will get it right.
But we don’t have to get it right to match your fulfilled prophecies. We can pretend we did and make up stories after the fact to explain how you really went to whichever state we chose. Would you find that amazing? Or do you expect us to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by candle2, posted 04-06-2024 4:39 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 495 of 537 (917424)
04-07-2024 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by Percy
03-26-2024 8:46 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Percy, another non-Biblical source for the authenticity of
Jesus comes from Roman historian and Senator, Tacitus.
Remember that taking the word of anyone who wrote
centuries ago is subjective. This goes for all of them,
including the pagans and the secular.
Tacitus in his book "Annals of Imperial Rome", book 15,
page 44, records that Christ is the origin of Christians.
He records that Nero, in A.D. 64, falsely blamed persons
called Christians for the fire that destroyed much of Rome.
Tacitus states that Christ (Christus) was put to death by
Panties Pilate.
Several other facts that Tacitus records includes:
*There was a sizable number of Christian in Rome in the
first century.
*Nero persecuted Christians.
*It was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews.
*Pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome
and its origin in Roman Judea.
"When Tacitus wrote history, if he considered information
not entirely reliable, he normally wrote some indication to
his readers."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Percy, posted 03-26-2024 8:46 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2024 9:05 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 497 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-07-2024 9:09 AM candle2 has not replied
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