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Author Topic:   Why There Are Gold Bugs & Silver Stackers
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 46 of 64 (917168)
03-24-2024 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
03-24-2024 3:50 PM


Re: Lock Stock and Barrel
That can be said every day in the existence of humanity. It means nothing.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 03-24-2024 3:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18427
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 47 of 64 (917171)
03-25-2024 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Theodoric
03-24-2024 7:30 PM


Re: Assets and Liabilities...Unfunded Obligations?
Theo writes:
who else is going to take out debt?
What if not everybody wants to add to the debt?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Theodoric, posted 03-24-2024 7:30 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 03-25-2024 1:44 PM Phat has replied
 Message 55 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2024 3:09 PM Phat has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10190
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 48 of 64 (917172)
03-25-2024 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
03-23-2024 3:21 PM


Re: Hard Ass(ets)
Phat writes:
What I am implying is that we cannot nor should not keep borrowing against the equity of our country.
That's not how national debt works. There is nothing we are holding in collateral that is forfeited if the US does not pay its debt. There's no equity. The US either prints money or issues bonds.
As far as I am aware, every country has debt. It's part of being a country.
At the same time, its smart to pay down the debt during good economic times (i.e. right now) so that there is more head room to borrow against in the case of an economic downturn.
We cannot pay the worlds bills.
That really depends on the bills. For example, the money we spent to rebuild Europe and Japan (i.e. the Marshall Plan) was the best money this country ever spent given the returns it has given. Also, the financial support of NATO allies has been repaid many times over in terms of national security.
The US has the influence it has now because of foreign aid and money spent elsewhere. A lot of it is absolutely worth it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 03-23-2024 3:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10190
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 49 of 64 (917173)
03-25-2024 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
03-24-2024 3:48 PM


Re: Assets and Liabilities...Unfunded Obligations?
Phat writes:
Not if the public is in debt to the rest of the world.
In fact, not even if the public is in debt to the US treasury. Some debt is inevitable and is ok. We are stepping beyond that safety zone.
Why is it a problem if foreigners buy US Treasury bonds?
The public buys US Treasury bonds, so the US Treasury is in debt to the public, not the other way around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 03-24-2024 3:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 50 of 64 (917185)
03-25-2024 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
03-25-2024 2:32 AM


Re: Assets and Liabilities...Unfunded Obligations?
Supposed to be "take our debt". Is this still your response?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 03-25-2024 2:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 03-25-2024 1:56 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18427
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 51 of 64 (917186)
03-25-2024 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Theodoric
03-25-2024 1:44 PM


Re: Assets and Liabilities...Unfunded Obligations?
Yes. As Taq mentions, we are "supposed" to pay down the debt in good times so as to weather the bad times. This is not happening. What irks me is that nobody seems to care. Too much debt outstanding may eventually come back to bite us in the arse.
I fear that it will.
Am I being irrational?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 03-25-2024 1:44 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Taq, posted 03-25-2024 2:07 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 53 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-25-2024 2:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 54 by Theodoric, posted 03-25-2024 2:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10190
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 52 of 64 (917187)
03-25-2024 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
03-25-2024 1:56 PM


Re: Assets and Liabilities...Unfunded Obligations?
Phat writes:
Yes. As Taq mentions, we are "supposed" to pay down the debt in good times so as to weather the bad times. This is not happening. What irks me is that nobody seems to care. Too much debt outstanding may eventually come back to bite us in the arse.

I fear that it will.

Am I being irrational?
If our national debt doubles or triples, then fear would be a rational response. However, I don't think fear is a rational response with current debt levels. Increasing the debt by about 800 billion a year is essentially free since that treads water with respect to GDP.
The only real problem the current debt causes is an opportunity cost. We can't invest in big projects or big changes in the economy because of current debt. It's something akin to someone comfortably paying off one mortgage, but not having quite the income to comfortably afford a second mortgage on a vacation home.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 03-25-2024 1:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4555
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 53 of 64 (917188)
03-25-2024 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
03-25-2024 1:56 PM


Re: Assets and Liabilities...Unfunded Obligations?
Phat in Message 51 writes:
Yes. As Taq mentions, we are "supposed" to pay down the debt in good times so as to weather the bad times. This is not happening. What irks me is that nobody seems to care.
How do you know it is not happening? Just what exactly are you doing about it?
Phat in Message 51 writes:
Too much debt outstanding may eventually come back to bite us in the arse.

I fear that it will.

Am I being irrational?
Thoughts and prayers should save the day, shouldn't they? But what I think is more likely, the Republicans in Congress will cause the U.S. to default on it's debt, making barrowing in the future more expensive.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 03-25-2024 1:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 54 of 64 (917189)
03-25-2024 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
03-25-2024 1:56 PM


Re: Assets and Liabilities...Unfunded Obligations?
Yes. You always are.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 03-25-2024 1:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8612
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 55 of 64 (917190)
03-25-2024 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
03-25-2024 2:32 AM


Re: Assets and Liabilities...Unfunded Obligations?
What if not everybody wants to add to the debt?
Then pay off your credit cards and don't use them anymore.
Oh, you mean the government debt? You made your choice at the ballot box. You didn't win? You have no choice. You will pay your taxes or ... the IRS is not all that pleasant.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 03-25-2024 2:32 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Omnivorous, posted 03-25-2024 5:22 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 56 of 64 (917193)
03-25-2024 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by AZPaul3
03-25-2024 3:09 PM


Re: Assets and Liabilities...Unfunded Obligations?
What if not everybody wants to add to the debt?
Then pay off your credit cards and don't use them anymore.
Oh, you mean the government debt?
Also, the government accepts voluntary contributions.
During his personal good times (assumed), Phat could literally pay down the debt: more walk, less talk -- my kind of Christian nationalist..

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2024 3:09 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2024 6:47 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10190
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 57 of 64 (917194)
03-25-2024 6:16 PM


Debt v. Tax
Just to put some numbers on this.
2023 total tax revenue = 4.4 trillion
2023 interest on national debt = 0.689 trillion
2023 interest as percent of tax revenue = 15.7%
Would it be really nice to have 690 billion to put towards projects like converting to greener technologies? Yes, absolutely. Would it be of some benefit to lower taxes by that amount? Absolutely. Is the government collapsing under the weight of interest payments? No.

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8612
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


(4)
Message 58 of 64 (917195)
03-25-2024 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Omnivorous
03-25-2024 5:22 PM


Re: Assets and Liabilities...Unfunded Obligations?
Also, the government accepts voluntary contributions.
Isn't Phat a republican? They don't want to waste their tax $$ on paying down last decades debt. The republican ideal is to give away all our tax money as loopholes for billionaires and their international conglomerates.
Phat doesn't realize that he and his union bros pay more in income tax than their employer. And funnier still, he thinks he has a direct say in how his tax money is spent. Fund the business loophole but not the school lunch program.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Omnivorous, posted 03-25-2024 5:22 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Taq, posted 03-26-2024 10:57 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10190
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 59 of 64 (917209)
03-26-2024 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by AZPaul3
03-25-2024 6:47 PM


Re: Assets and Liabilities...Unfunded Obligations?
AZPaul3 writes:
Isn't Phat a republican? They don't want to waste their tax $$ on paying down last decades debt. The republican ideal is to give away all our tax money as loopholes for billionaires and their international conglomerates.
Phat is hoping to scoop up the crumbs that fall off the table of the rich. He's hoping there will be more crumbs if they are allowed to keep more of their money, apparently. Trickle Down economics sounds a whole lot more like getting pissed on, at least to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2024 6:47 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Theodoric, posted 03-26-2024 12:58 PM Taq has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 60 of 64 (917210)
03-26-2024 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Taq
03-26-2024 10:57 AM


Re: Assets and Liabilities...Unfunded Obligations?
Should be changed to tinkle down economics.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Taq, posted 03-26-2024 10:57 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Omnivorous, posted 03-26-2024 5:42 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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