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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
PaulK
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Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 466 of 537 (917165)
03-24-2024 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by candle2
03-24-2024 5:11 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
quote:
***You are right, Paulk. And I should gave done that. I will
quote the OT prophecy, and where it was fulfilled in the NT.
I didn’t ask for where the NT says it was fulfilled, since we’re talking about the historical Jesus you need to use the methods and standards of history. Good luck with that.
Besides, I’d the NT is all you have you don’t have anything impressive at all. Perhaps your time would be better spent showing where archaeology deals with the creation of the universe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by candle2, posted 03-24-2024 5:11 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by candle2, posted 03-26-2024 1:28 PM PaulK has replied

  
candle2
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Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 467 of 537 (917175)
03-25-2024 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 464 by PaulK
03-24-2024 10:49 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Paulk, OT prophecies and NT fulfillment.
*Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem. OT, Micah 5:2--NT,
Matthew 2:4-6.
*Jesus would begin His ministry in Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2,
Matthew 4:12-17.
*The Scepter shall not depart from Judah. Genesis 49:10,
Luke 3:33.
*They would cast lots for the clothes of Jesus. Psalms 22:18,
John 19:23-24.
*Jesus would teach in parables. Psalms 78:1-2, Mark 4:2;
Luke 8:10 and Matthew 13:34-35.
*the parables of Jesus were used to hide the their true
meaning from all except His elect. Isaiah 6:9-10, Matthew
13:13-15 and Mark 4:11,13.
*Jesus betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:13-13,
Matthew 27:6-10.
*Jesus would remain quiet before His accusers. Psalms
38:12-13. Matthew 27:12-14.
I will post more a little later.
*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by PaulK, posted 03-24-2024 10:49 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
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Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 468 of 537 (917178)
03-25-2024 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by candle2
03-25-2024 11:19 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Shall we list the prophesies of the Karaethon Cycle, and how they were fulfilled by Rand Al'Thor in later books of the Wheel of Time?
"Fulfilled prophecy" isn't very impressive, especially when later authors are aware of the earlier prophesies and can write stories about how they were "fulfilled."
Predict something extremely narrow and well-defined and *incredibly unlikely to happen*, ensure that those involved in fulfillment are unaware of the prophecy, and then do that 10 or 100 times and it might become impressive.
"There will be wars and rumors of wars" is like predicting that tomorrow is Tuesday.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by candle2, posted 03-25-2024 11:19 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by candle2, posted 03-26-2024 3:24 PM Rahvin has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 469 of 537 (917179)
03-25-2024 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by candle2
03-25-2024 11:19 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
I didn’t ask for NT “fulfilment”. I asked for historical confirmation.
quote:
Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem.
The two stories have significant disagreements and implausible elements with no confirmation in any other source - not even each other. Likely they were invented based on this prophecy, and Jesus was born in Nazareth. (One example problem - Matthew has Jesus born prior to the reign of Herod Archelaus - 2:22 makes this plain. Luke has Jesus born during the census of Quirinius, after Archelaus was deposed 2:1-2).
So, nothing incredible here.
quote:
Jesus would begin His ministry in Galilee.
Nothing about starting a ministry there. Indeed it seems to be predicting that Galilee will be incorporated into the Kingdom of Judah - and it seems to be very much rooted in the situation of the time of Isaiah as the preceding and following verses make clear.
So, no, not impressive at all.
quote:
The Scepter shall not depart from Judah. Genesis 49:10
It is completely unclear what you mean here. However, give that the Davidic line is lost, and there have been no kings of Judah at all for nearly 2000 years it’s really hard to call this one fulfilled (or specifically about Jesus who very likely was NOT of the line of David - the disagreements between Matthew and Luke give good reason to doubt both genealogies).
quote:
They would cast lots for the clothes of Jesus Psalms 22:18,
There isn’t even a good reason to think that this is a prophecy.
quote:
Jesus would teach in parables. Psalms 78:1-2
There is no reason to think that this is a prophecy at all.
quote:
the parables of Jesus were used to hide the their true
meaning from all except His elect. Isaiah 6:9-10,
Definitely not a prophecy those are instructions given to Isaiah.
quote:
Jesus betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:13-13
That requires an interesting interpretation of Zechariah. Is Zechariah a betrayer ? He is the one paid 30 pieces of silver. And where is Jesus in it?
quote:
Jesus would remain quiet before His accusers. Psalms 38:12-13
Again, not a prophecy.
So really this isn’t at all impressive. Even in the one case where you have an actual prophecy and an apparent fulfilment the fulfilment looks to be a fiction. Most aren’t even prophecies. The only impressive thing is that people somehow fall for this obvious nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by candle2, posted 03-25-2024 11:19 AM candle2 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6203
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 470 of 537 (917183)
03-25-2024 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by Percy
03-20-2024 12:45 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Percy writes:
The topic of the thread is that the historical Jesus created the universe.
Here's my take on it for what it is worth.
John chap 1 says that "the Word became flesh" obviously referring to Jesus. All through the creation stories we read of God speaking the world and creatures into existence. So when, John and others talk about the "Word" of God they are referring back to the Genesis accounts.
So when Jesus the man embodied God's nature of Agapeic love it was then said that He embodied God's Word, and thus some have wrongly extended that to mean that Jesus was there from the beginning of time. It does not mean that Jesus would have had any memory of what happened at any time prior to His birth. It was God's created intelligence and agapeic love, or His "Word" that brought the universe as we perceive it into existence.
I contend that we can learn a lot from the Biblical mythologies, if we don't try to understand them literally.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


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Taq
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 471 of 537 (917184)
03-25-2024 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by candle2
03-25-2024 11:19 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
candle2 writes:
Paulk, OT prophecies and NT fulfillment.
What I find informative is all of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy could easily be faked without anyone knowing. Is there something about 30 pieces of silver? Well, just write it into the story.
The Messiah was actually supposed to conquer the enemies of the Jews. That didn't happen. People would have noticed that one. Instead, the enemy of the Jews killed the alleged Messiah, and then destroyed the Temple not long after that. That's enough to show that Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies, at least in my eyes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by candle2, posted 03-25-2024 11:19 AM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 472 of 537 (917191)
03-25-2024 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by PaulK
03-24-2024 10:49 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Paulk, here are a few more:
*Passover Lamb was to be w/o blemish. Exodus 12:5.
Hebrews 9:14.
*Jesus was our Passover Lamb. (1Corinthians 5:7).Not a
born of His was to broken. Exodus 12:46. John 19:31-36.
*Jesus was to be forsakenby His Father. Psalms 22:1.
Matthew 27:46.
*Jesus was to be the mediator of a new Covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31. Matthew 26:28. Hebrews 8:6-13.
*God would call His Son out of Egypt. Hosea11:1.
Matthew 2:14-15.
*Jesus would have a forerunner before Him. Isaiah 40:3-4.
John 1:23.
*His friends an followers would forsake Him. Psalms 31:11.
Mark :24:50.
*His body would not see decay. Psalms 16:9-11.
Acts 2:31.
*His crucifiers would give Him gall and wine to drink.
Psalms 69:21. Matthew 27:34.
*Jesus would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14. Luke 1:34-35.
Matthew 1:23.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by PaulK, posted 03-24-2024 10:49 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by PaulK, posted 03-25-2024 3:55 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 473 of 537 (917192)
03-25-2024 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by candle2
03-25-2024 3:28 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
quote:
*Passover Lamb was to be w/o blemish. Exodus 12:5.
Hebrews 9:14.

*Jesus was our Passover Lamb. (1Corinthians 5:7).Not a
born of His was to broken. Exodus 12:46. John 19:31-36.

*Jesus was to be forsakenby His Father. Psalms 22:1.
Matthew 27:46.

None of these are prophecies.
quote:
Jesus was to be the mediator of a new Covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31. Matthew 26:28. Hebrews 8:6-13.
Which does not appear to have arrived. Jeremiah states that the new covenant will be with the people of Israel:
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 No longer shall they teach one another or say to each other, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and remember their sin no more.
Is that actually the case? (And please spare me the ridiculous Anglo-Israelite nonsense).
Interestingly it states that Jerusalem would never be demolished - yet the Romans did demolish it after Jesus came. Jesus time on Earth did not see the fulfilment of that part of the prophecy either.
quote:
God would call His Son out of Egypt. Hosea11:1.
Matthew 2:14-15
Not a prophecy.
quote:
Jesus would have a forerunner before Him. Isaiah 40:3-4.
John 1:23.
No, it doesn’t say that and it appears to be speaking of Isaiah’s time.
quote:
His friends an followers would forsake Him. Psalms 31:11.
Mark :24:50.

*His body would not see decay. Psalms 16:9-11.
Acts 2:31.

*His crucifiers would give Him gall and wine to drink.
Psalms 69:21. Matthew 27:34.
Not prophecies.
quote:
Jesus would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14. Luke 1:34-35.
Matthew 1:23.
The actual prophecy is that the Assyrians would conquer Aram and Israel the birth of the child (not to a virgin) is a sign that that event would occur sometime in the next couple of years. Jesus was born centuries too late for that.
So again not at all impressive. When do we get to see the good stuff?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by candle2, posted 03-25-2024 3:28 PM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Percy, posted 03-26-2024 8:46 AM PaulK has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22621
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


(2)
Message 474 of 537 (917203)
03-26-2024 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 473 by PaulK
03-25-2024 3:55 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
I thought the suggestion to follow the traditional standards of history when discussing what the historical Jesus actually did was a good one. I don't see how candle2's review of Biblical prophecy ties into that.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by PaulK, posted 03-25-2024 3:55 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by PaulK, posted 03-26-2024 9:53 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
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 Message 495 by candle2, posted 04-07-2024 9:04 AM Percy has replied
 Message 501 by candle2, posted 04-07-2024 1:14 PM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
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Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 475 of 537 (917204)
03-26-2024 9:31 AM


Close topic?
As ICANT abandoned this almost a month ago, should it not be closed?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 13082
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 476 of 537 (917205)
03-26-2024 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 475 by Theodoric
03-26-2024 9:31 AM


Re: Close topic?
Theodoric in Message 475 writes:
As ICANT abandoned this almost a month ago, should it not be closed?
Yes, but though I had stopped participating for a while, I picked up again when candle2 joined, so I'm disqualified from taking any action for now. Maybe the PaulK/candle2 dialog will drift more toward the topic.
Adminnemooseus and AdminNosy might step in. I think Mod is only here to say hi, but he still has his admin privileges.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 477 of 537 (917206)
03-26-2024 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by Percy
03-26-2024 8:46 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
candle2 alleges otherwise - making the same error ICANT did, of failing to understand the concept of the Historical Jesus.
And he has the same inability to make a rational case.
Still, I think exposing this stuff as the nonsense it is has some value.

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candle2
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Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 478 of 537 (917212)
03-26-2024 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by PaulK
03-24-2024 5:32 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Paulk, don't play dumb. The men who wrote the NT were
not idiots. There is no way that they would give live to
follow a made up God.
These same Apostles and Disciples of Jesus ran when he
was arrested. They denied that they even knew Him.
These were Jews, and the majority of them do not accept
Jesus as the Messiah today. It was the same back then.
These same men, the one who ran, were hiding in a room
when Jesus appeared to them after His crucifixion and
resurrection.
Why were they hiding? They were hiding for fear of the
Jews. John 20:19.
Joseph of Arimathea took the body of Jesus secretly for
fear of the Jews. John 19:38.
Something miraculous happened that caused these men
who feared for their lives to become emboldened, and
face the wrath of the Sanhedrin.
Nobody is going to risk their life for a made-up scheme,
which they know is nor true.
There were many Jews still alive when the Disciples of
Christ were making their claims. If it were not true, they
would have said so.
No one who is making up a god to follow is going to have
their god beaten, spat on, ridiculed, and nailed to a stake.
And, no follower of this made-up god is going to record,
for all to see, that he ran and hid like a frightened child.
Paul was a hostile witness to Jesus. Paul was responsible
for tracking down Christians and having the beaten or
killed.
Something happened to this man that changed his entire
life and outlook. He voluntarily became a follower of Christ.
And as such, he suffered numerous beatings, as well as
spending a good amount of time in cold, dark dungeons.
The authors of the Bible have as much authority, even more
so, than any authors who have ever lived.
Jesus was born in a tiny, out of the way, town that most of
the world didn't even know existed. And, believe it or not
Paulk, there were no cell phones, newspapers, or internet.
To all but His followers it was not an issue.
God is not trying to save the world during this present age.
He is only calling His elect, those who will be part of His
government, and who will rule with Him, when He returns
to set up His Kingdom.
I want to be in His Kingdom.
You want only to believe that you leached from a rock.
And, that you have ancestors who were chimp like creatures.
You know deep down that Jesus is the Creator. The Holy
Bible serves ad a witness to this.
Without the Creator there would be nothing. Nothing is
what rocks dream about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by PaulK, posted 03-24-2024 5:32 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by PaulK, posted 03-26-2024 1:48 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 479 of 537 (917213)
03-26-2024 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by candle2
03-26-2024 1:28 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
quote:
Paulk, don't play dumb.
You want me to be genuinely stupid, then? Because that’s what it would take to actually believe this nonsense you’ve put out.
I note that you can’t even answer even one of the points I made. You can’t even show that half of your ”fulfilled prophecies” even are prophecies!
So despite all your arrogant bluster, you’ve got nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by candle2, posted 03-26-2024 1:28 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 480 of 537 (917216)
03-26-2024 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by Rahvin
03-25-2024 11:54 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Rahvin, you wrote:
"There will be wars and rumors of wars" is like predicting
that tomorrow is Tuesday."
*I never said anything about wars and rumors of wars.
Tomorrow will be Wednesday.
The God of the Bible will give everyone who has ever lived
the opportunity to receive eternal life. However, it will be
at His appointed time.
He will offer the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc, their
opportunity to receive eternal life.
Anyone who finds faults with God, and His generosity,
needs to seek some psychological help.
The God of the Bible will offer everyone who has ever lived
the opportunity to become members of the God family.
As the sons of God, therefore God Beings ourself, we
will have powers and intellect much greater than what
Satan now has.
Anyone who finds fault with God's plans for us needs a
reality check.
God does not owe us anything. Everything that we receive
from Him is due to His great love for us.
Evolutionists reject the true God. They much rather believe
that they leached from a rock.
According to them, everything is due to random chance,
even their brains and minds.
The problem with this concept is simply how can they possibly
trust their minds?
They reduce themselves to mere animals, who sniff each
others butts and pick lead off of each others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Rahvin, posted 03-25-2024 11:54 AM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Omnivorous, posted 03-26-2024 6:07 PM candle2 has replied
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