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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
Theodoric
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Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 451 of 563 (915983)
02-21-2024 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by PaulK
02-20-2024 3:18 PM


Education on the subject matter helps
i would suggest some college level courses on the historic method and historical research. There are universities offering some online. I could even help you pick some out.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2024 3:18 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2024 1:44 PM Theodoric has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 452 of 563 (915985)
02-21-2024 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Theodoric
02-21-2024 1:10 PM


Re: Education on the subject matter helps
I’d suggest that you try it, but you’re obviously not ready for college. But carry on with this joke all you like, I’m still laughing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Theodoric, posted 02-21-2024 1:10 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by Theodoric, posted 02-21-2024 1:55 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 453 of 563 (915986)
02-21-2024 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by PaulK
02-21-2024 1:44 PM


Re: Education on the subject matter helps
Ok Mr. Historical research expert. Done with your disrespect. If I want to be treated like this and talk to someone this condescending I will talk to a creo. At least they admit they have no evidence.
Good day, Sir

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2024 1:44 PM PaulK has not replied

  
ChemEngineer
Junior Member
Posts: 18
From: Irvine CA 92606
Joined: 03-10-2024


Message 454 of 563 (916791)
03-12-2024 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rahvin
04-05-2012 1:52 PM


Expert Testimony on Jesus and His Resurrection
“I say unequivocally that the evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.” – Sir Lionel Luckhoo, The Most Successful Attorney in History, according to the Guiness Book of Records
Simon Greenleaf – professor of law at Harvard in the 1800s
His three-volume work, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, has been considered by The Supreme Court to be the greatest single authority on legal evidence.
He said, “If the evidence for the resurrection was set before any unbiased courtroom in the world it would be judged to be an historical fact - Jesus Christ rose from the dead.”
There remains, therefore, no supposition possible to explain the recorded phenomenon except the combination of the fructification and rupture of the heart. - Samuel Houghton, M.D., great physiologist from the University of Dublin
/
We are told on eyewitness authority that “blood and water” came out of the pierced side of Jesus. The eyewitness clearly attached great importance to this.
/
This is evidence of massive clotting of the blood in the main arteries, and is exceptionally strong medical proof of death. It is all the more impressive because the evangelist could not possibly have realized its significance to a pathologist. the “blood and water” from the spear-thrust is proof positive that Jesus was already dead. - Michael Green, M.D. [The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell, pages 224-225]

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Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Theodoric, posted 03-12-2024 9:49 PM ChemEngineer has not replied
 Message 456 by Theodoric, posted 03-13-2024 12:19 AM ChemEngineer has not replied
 Message 457 by PaulK, posted 03-13-2024 1:12 AM ChemEngineer has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 455 of 563 (916794)
03-12-2024 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by ChemEngineer
03-12-2024 9:21 PM


Re: Expert Testimony on Jesus and His Resurrection
Are you going to post this copypasta dreck on all the Jesus dude topics? That is poor form and probably a violation of forum rules.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by ChemEngineer, posted 03-12-2024 9:21 PM ChemEngineer has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Phat, posted 03-13-2024 2:59 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 456 of 563 (916802)
03-13-2024 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 454 by ChemEngineer
03-12-2024 9:21 PM


Re: Expert Testimony on Jesus and His Resurrection
So on this post you claim Michael Green is an MD. Are you ignorant? Stupid? A liar? This is from Green's 1968 book "Man Alive". He was a Theologian with a Doctor of Divinity, so no real education and certainly nothing in medicine.
Michael_Green_(theologian)
This has your Michael Green quote and footnote for the source.
God Looks At Your Heart - Historical Proof that Jesus was really Dead

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by ChemEngineer, posted 03-12-2024 9:21 PM ChemEngineer has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-13-2024 1:47 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 457 of 563 (916803)
03-13-2024 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 454 by ChemEngineer
03-12-2024 9:21 PM


Re: Expert Testimony on Jesus and His Resurrection
Christian apologists spout outrageous falsehoods. Hardly a surprise.
The evidence for the Resurrection is incredibly weak and no rational court should accept it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by ChemEngineer, posted 03-12-2024 9:21 PM ChemEngineer has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4443
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 458 of 563 (916804)
03-13-2024 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 456 by Theodoric
03-13-2024 12:19 AM


Re: Expert Testimony on Jesus and His Resurrection
I think this must be his strategy: saturation bombing forums with his drivel and he occasionally makes a sale. They can add up, I think there's an Audible version as well. I looked it up on Amazon and probably contaminated my online footprint, but the religious nutters lose interest in me pretty fast...

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by Theodoric, posted 03-13-2024 12:19 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 459 of 563 (916806)
03-13-2024 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 455 by Theodoric
03-12-2024 9:49 PM


Jesus Spam
He even sent me a private message. I swear I don't know this guy.
Private Message writes:
From ChemEngineer
To Phat
Dear Brother in Christ,

Please see my website Proof-There-Is-No-God.blogspot.com

I recently published a book you would certainly enjoy and reference.
BrilliantCreations-The-Wonder.blogspot.com
Dr. Orosz said it "is beyond incredible. Please send me twenty autographed copies."
You can read it on Amazon.com
Were I an administrator I would boot the guy for being a spammer. And I'm not clicking on any of his links.
AddByEdit: I think I found him. But then again, maybe not.
Jukebox Mind
Its the same guy, but he does not mention Jesus even once, so I know he is fake.
Maybe the whole persona is made up and the reason is only to spam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Theodoric, posted 03-12-2024 9:49 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by Theodoric, posted 03-13-2024 11:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 460 of 563 (916807)
03-13-2024 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by PaulK
03-13-2024 1:12 AM


Re: Expert Testimony on Jesus and His Resurrection
Essays of interest:
Courtroom Apologetics shows how the case is rigged.
Critique of John Warwick Montgomery’s Arguments for the Legal Evidence for Christianity. Retired attorney Richard Packham takes on a prominent example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by PaulK, posted 03-13-2024 1:12 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by Phat, posted 03-14-2024 7:01 AM PaulK has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 461 of 563 (916816)
03-13-2024 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by Phat
03-13-2024 2:59 AM


Re: Jesus Spam
That is him. Spammer and shyster.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Phat, posted 03-13-2024 2:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 462 of 563 (916835)
03-14-2024 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 460 by PaulK
03-13-2024 6:47 AM


Re: Expert Testimony on Jesus and His Resurrection
You present an interesting rabbit trail but that stuff doesn't help my faith much, though it adds to my rational database.
I suppose that you Peanut Gallarians want to encourage me to critically evaluate my faith, but it didn't do much for you.
Still, it makes for an interesting discussion between us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by PaulK, posted 03-13-2024 6:47 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 463 of 563 (916839)
03-14-2024 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by Phat
03-14-2024 7:01 AM


Re: Expert Testimony on Jesus and His Resurrection
It’s no more of a rabbit trail than ChemEngineer’s post. Less so, since i provided links to actual essays rather than copy-pasting someone else’s blurbs which just repeats other people’s assertions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Phat, posted 03-14-2024 7:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2422
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 464 of 563 (917511)
04-09-2024 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Theodoric
02-19-2024 5:32 PM


Define "the Bible"
quote:
All the books of the Bible are apocryphal. We do not know who wrote them, when or their provenance. We do know some of the Pauline epistles were written by a dude named Paul. That is pretty much all we know about him. He states that everything he knows about Jesus is by revelation. He clearly says he did not know an earthly Jesus or ever met anyone that has met an earthly Jesus.
Why do you ignore this evidence?
Which Bible?
Here is a website called History For Athiests.
quote:
Marcion was born around 100 AD in the city of Sinope on the southern coast of the Black Sea. After a falling out with his father, the local bishop, he travelled to Rome in around 139 AD. There he began to develop his own Christian theology; one which was quite different to that of his father and of the Christian community in Rome. Marcion was struck by the strong distinction made by Paul between the Law of the Jews and the gospel of Christ. For Marcion, this distinction was absolute: the coming of Jesus made the whole of the Jewish Law and Jewish Scriptures redundant and the ‘God’ of the Jews was actually quite different to the God preached by Jesus. For Marcion, the Jewish God was evil, vengeful, violent and judgemental, while the God of Jesus was quite the opposite. Marcion decided that there were actually two Gods – the evil one who had misled the Jews and the good one revealed by Jesus.
This understanding led Marcion to put together a canon of Christian Scripture – the first of its kind – which excluded all of the Jewish Scriptures that make up the Old Testament and which included ten of the Epistles of Paul and only one of the gospels: the Gospel of Luke.
Marcion tried to get his radical reassessment of Christianity and his canon accepted by calling a council of the Christian community in Rome. Far from accepting his teachings, the council excommunicated him and he left Rome in disgust, returning to Asia Minor. There he met with far more success, and Marcionite churches sprang up which embraced his idea of two Gods and used his canon of eleven scriptural works. Alarmed at his success, other Christian leaders began to preach and write vigorously against Marcion’s ideas and it seems that his canon of eleven works inspired anti-Marcionite Christians to begin to define which texts were and were not Scriptural.
I would have to say that the first known Bible was not a forgery.
It consisted of actual copies of actual graphs from a guy actually named Paul.
It is not mostly pseudographical.
It was not apocryphal.
Not the first known Bible from just before 150 CE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Theodoric, posted 02-19-2024 5:32 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by Theodoric, posted 04-09-2024 9:16 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2422
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 465 of 563 (917513)
04-09-2024 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Theodoric
02-16-2024 12:08 PM


Carrier and his approach to Bayesian analysis.
quote:
Bayesian analysis is becoming a part of modern historical scholarship. Not just Carrier. Whether you think it is bollux is irrelevant. Also, Carrier has many peer reviewed articles that do not include Bayes Theorem at all.

He is a vile human being, but a hell of a scholar.
Carrier is often mentioned by you, but you never show us his scoring technique.
He actually has a grading scale for every piece of evidence.
He has responded to his critics by challenging them to quantify the evidence using their own scoring system centering around Bayesian analysis and the statistical scale.
He responds to his critics, by pointing out that he does grade the James references as evidence for the history of Jesus.
You never show us his scoring system for any individual item.
(also, he has not been found guilty of crimes. He only is certainly loose sexually, but the crimes were never demonstrated, were they?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2024 12:08 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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