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Author
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Topic: The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
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Phat
Member Posts: 18718 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.1
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Message 361 of 537 (916520)
03-05-2024 2:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 360 by AZPaul3
03-05-2024 1:17 PM
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Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
AZAnti writes: You pay actual money to listen to this crap? I know Sproul. I will not listen to any more of his self-serving apologist fantasies. His is the evil that poisons the human intellect with fantasy thinking and insists on predetermined conclusions. So you assert. I see no evidence of this in the teaching I shared. Dont you see how delusional your argument sounds? You want me to spend my money more wisely. Last I checked, EvC was/is free. None of us pay anything. We share ideas with each other, and now you apparantly want to censor mine. Whats next? Banning free speech in public if it offends someone?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 360 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2024 1:17 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 362 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2024 2:32 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 363 by Rahvin, posted 03-05-2024 2:58 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8717 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 362 of 537 (916521)
03-05-2024 2:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 361 by Phat
03-05-2024 2:12 PM
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Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
Good god Phat we aren't talking about any of this censor shit. Your mind has become unhinged. Get your head right. Your cited website wants money to read Sproul's extended works. Bullshit. That has nothing at all to do with any god damned EVC fees or censoring your fucking posts. What the ever loving fuck are you doing? You gone over the edge?
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 361 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 2:12 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4084 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.0
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Message 363 of 537 (916522)
03-05-2024 2:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 361 by Phat
03-05-2024 2:12 PM
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Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
We share ideas with each other, and now you apparantly want to censor mine. Whats next? Banning free speech in public if it offends someone? I dont think you understand the word "censorship." Or the concept of "free speech." Free speech does not entitle you to use anyone else's platform, and it does not entitle you to be listened to. It only means that you cannot face criminal consequences from your speech. You cannot be imprisoned or fined by the government. It means literally nothing else, at all. At all, Phat. The individuals on this forum cannot possibly infringe on your free speech, unless we have a legislator or law enforcement amongst us. Literally nothing. no action any of us can do, no words we can use, can possibly infringe on your free speech. Anyone who told you different was lying to you. If you speak nonsense, other people are perfectly able to tell you that you've said...nonsense. If you share a source that someone thinks is vile, they're allowed to say that they think your source is vile. "Free speech" does not mean you or those you like can speak without facing social consequences - they (and you, and everyone else) are only protected from legal consequences. The "but muh free speech!" thing is a common refrain from people who have shitty opinions, get called out for their shitty opinions, and think they're entitled to spread their shitty opinions everywhere. If you find yourself concerned about free speech in a circumstance that has nothing to do with facing legal consequences or censorship from the governments, you should pause and consider the speech you're choosing to make, and why people are reacting negatively.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 361 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 2:12 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Candle3
Member Posts: 936 Joined: 12-31-2018 Member Rating: 3.8
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Message 364 of 537 (916536)
03-06-2024 8:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 356 by dwise1
03-05-2024 12:28 PM
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Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
dwise, you wrote: That's really rich coming from a creationist who denies the Creation and tried to disprove it, hence denying the Creator in favor of your false creationist theology. ***I, more so than anyone else on this board, have defended God's creation. I do not try to place man's interpretations of creation over what the Bible clearly tells me. There is a purpose in everything that God does. In order for God to have created the universe, He, by necessity, possessed an all knowing mind, with unlimited knowledge of mathematics, physics, chemistry, etc... There is no known way that nature (a natural process) could have created the universe and all that it contains.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 356 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2024 12:28 PM | | dwise1 has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18718 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.1
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Message 365 of 537 (916542)
03-06-2024 10:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 359 by Rahvin
03-05-2024 1:11 PM
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Rahvin vs Scripture
Rahvin:
Faith is and can only be lies.
Heb 11:1 writes: NIV Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see Why must faith be lies?
Logic is actually a rigorous check on the validity of an argument. Only its validity, not its truth.
Faith may be illogical at times, but need not be lies.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 359 by Rahvin, posted 03-05-2024 1:11 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 366 by Rahvin, posted 03-06-2024 11:17 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4084 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.0
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Message 366 of 537 (916546)
03-06-2024 11:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 365 by Phat
03-06-2024 10:10 AM
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Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Why must faith be lies?
Faith may be illogical at times, but need not be lies.
Because faith is definitionally unjustified belief. It is confidence that a belief reflects a true fact about reality, without justification for that confidence through evidence. In the best case scenario, a person is lying to themselves - they are inflating their confidence in their belief through something other than actual objective evidence. Perhaps they believe that the belief is morally good, for example. Or simply comforting. This is "making yourself believe" rather than being convinced via objective evidence. Literally make believe. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see This is not contradictory with my statement. It's in total agreement. It describes making oneself believe based on hope, not based on evidence. There is nothing that you cannot make believe based on hope or other emotions. Any overlap with actual reality will be incidental - the belief itself is unjustified. The confidence in that belief is a lie.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 365 by Phat, posted 03-06-2024 10:10 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Candle3
Member Posts: 936 Joined: 12-31-2018 Member Rating: 3.8
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Message 367 of 537 (916744)
03-11-2024 9:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 366 by Rahvin
03-06-2024 11:17 AM
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Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Ravine, you wrote: Because faith is definitionally unjustified belief. It is confidence that a belief reflects a true fact about reality, without justification for that confidence through evidence. ***We are not talking about mere belief, nor are we talking about faith that God exists. James 2:19 "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble." Many falsely assume that just believing that God exists is enough. Many are even baptized, believing that this is all that is required of them. This is not the kind of faith that God requires of His disciples. It is much, much deeper than this. Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must belive that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Diligently here means to fully investigate; to seek out; to earnestly crave; and, to demand proof. To believe that God exists is only the starting point. We must also believe what He says, and what He promises us. To have faith as it is defined in the Bible we must goes much deeper than what one has never experienced it can understand. It is a life-changing certainty. It both allows and requires us to repent of our way of life, and to allow the Holy Spirit of God to create within us a new creature. Now only can we have faith, but we must have it if we are to truly know God. When one says that the deep life-changing faith we have is simply an illusion they are speaking from ignorance. I do not mean this in a condescending way, merely that they have no experience in this matter. It would be comparable to me telling a surgeon how to perform open-heart surgery.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 366 by Rahvin, posted 03-06-2024 11:17 AM | | Rahvin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 368 by Rahvin, posted 03-11-2024 1:51 PM | | Candle3 has replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4084 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.0
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Message 368 of 537 (916751)
03-11-2024 1:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 367 by Candle3
03-11-2024 9:22 AM
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Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Diligently here means to fully investigate; to seek out; to
earnestly crave; and, to demand proof. If you had "proof" you would present it, and you would not require faith. If faith is the evidence of things unseen...proof would be seeing, and you would no longer need faith. We wouldnt need a separate word - we're just use the terms "evidence" and "fact."
When one says that the deep life-changing faith we
have is simply an illusion they are speaking from
ignorance. I do not mean this in a condescending way,
merely that they have no experience in this matter. I was a devout Christian, candle. I had faith. I do speak from experience. I was "certain." I would have agreed with everything in your post, ~20 years ago. Faith is not illusion. Faith is delusion.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 367 by Candle3, posted 03-11-2024 9:22 AM | | Candle3 has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18718 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.1
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Message 369 of 537 (916756)
03-11-2024 3:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 368 by Rahvin
03-11-2024 1:51 PM
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Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Rahvin writes: Faith is not illusion. Faith is delusion. I disagree, but then again I am still a devout Christian. Perhaps some day the scales will fall from my eyes and I will be baptized in peanut oil and join the gallery.  Then again, I've had experiences in life that none of you have had, and visa versa. There is also a difference between being a devout Christian through works and identity and being devout for no other reason than That voice in my head wont let me throw God away.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 368 by Rahvin, posted 03-11-2024 1:51 PM | | Rahvin has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 372 by Taq, posted 03-12-2024 3:07 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18718 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.1
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Message 370 of 537 (916758)
03-11-2024 3:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 366 by Rahvin
03-06-2024 11:17 AM
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Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Rahvin writes: Because faith is definitionally unjustified belief. It is confidence that a belief reflects a true fact about reality, without justification for that confidence through evidence. So you threw away your answer and kept asking questions, while I kept my answer and still asked questions. You were a convinced Christian. I remain unconvinced except through the substance. I do not need to convince you, but perhaps you have a desire to reason with me, in which case feel free to do so. As for true facts, what other kinds are there?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 366 by Rahvin, posted 03-06-2024 11:17 AM | | Rahvin has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 371 by Taq, posted 03-12-2024 3:02 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Taq
Member Posts: 10388 Joined: 03-06-2009 Member Rating: 5.7
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Message 371 of 537 (916783)
03-12-2024 3:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 370 by Phat
03-11-2024 3:13 PM
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Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Phat writes: As for true facts, what other kinds are there? According to some (e.g. Kellyanne Conway), there are alternative facts. It sounds a lot like alternative medicine. If it worked, they would just call it medicine.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 370 by Phat, posted 03-11-2024 3:13 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Taq
Member Posts: 10388 Joined: 03-06-2009 Member Rating: 5.7
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Message 372 of 537 (916784)
03-12-2024 3:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 369 by Phat
03-11-2024 3:05 PM
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Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Phat writes: I disagree, but then again I am still a devout Christian. Perhaps some day the scales will fall from my eyes and I will be baptized in peanut oil and join the gallery. I, for one, don't need other people on my team in order to believe, or not believe, as I do. I say to you, keep being human. I think it's pretty obvious that religious belief is part of the human experience for a majority of humans through time, at least in civilized time. If you want to understand why atheists don't believe, we are more than willing to discuss it. However, I don't feel the need to make theists feel as though they are believing in the wrong thing, as if that goal could ever be achieved strictly by atheist arguments. I have found that personal experiences play a much stronger role in the path people take.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 369 by Phat, posted 03-11-2024 3:05 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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RenaissanceMan
Junior Member (Idle past 154 days) Posts: 30 From: Anaheim Joined: 03-10-2024
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Message 373 of 537 (916790)
03-12-2024 9:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 3 by Tanypteryx
02-17-2024 1:09 PM
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Tanypteryx wrote: "Jesus is fictional....." “I say unequivocally that the evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.” – Sir Lionel Luckhoo, The Most Successful Attorney in History, according to the Guiness Book of Records Simon Greenleaf – professor of law at Harvard in the 1800s His three-volume work, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, has been considered by The Supreme Court to be the greatest single authority on legal evidence. He said, “If the evidence for the resurrection was set before any unbiased courtroom in the world it would be judged to be an historical fact - Jesus Christ rose from the dead.” There remains, therefore, no supposition possible to explain the recorded phenomenon except the combination of the fructification and rupture of the heart. - Samuel Houghton, M.D., great physiologist from the University of Dublin / We are told on eyewitness authority that “blood and water” came out of the pierced side of Jesus. The eyewitness clearly attached great importance to this. / This is evidence of massive clotting of the blood in the main arteries, and is exceptionally strong medical proof of death. It is all the more impressive because the evangelist could not possibly have realized its significance to a pathologist. the “blood and water” from the spear-thrust is proof positive that Jesus was already dead. - Michael Green [The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, pages 224-225] Attorneys are experts in the analysis of evidence. Atheists summarily reject any and all evidence contrary to atheist nihilism.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-17-2024 1:09 PM | | Tanypteryx has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005
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You should learn what fallacies are. These are all christians of course the would say this. Lionel Luckhoo. Lawyer from Guyana. Known for its jurisprudence. The Most Successful Attorney in History, according to the Guiness Book of Records Relevance please.
quote:
After his conversion, he established Luckhoo Ministries in Fort Worth, Texas, and became an itinerant speaker about his Christianity in Guyana, England, Australia and the United States of America. He wrote several booklets where he presented Christian apologetics arguments to persuade others about faith in Christ. Booklets included titles such as What is Your Verdict?, The Question Answered: Did Jesus Rise from the Dead?, and The Quran is not the Word of God. He also co-wrote an apologetics-based novel, The Silent Witness. Luckhoo's contributions to apologetics identify him with both the evidentialist school of thought, and the tradition known as legal or juridical apologetics. His spiritual life and apologetics contributions have been discussed in the writings of Ross Clifford, Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell.
Lionel Luckhoo - Wikipedia Simon Greenleaf
His three-volume work, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, has been considered by The Supreme Court to be the greatest single authority on legal evidence.
Source and relevance please.
quote:
Greenleaf is an important figure in the development of that Christian school of thought known as legal or juridical apologetics. This school of thought is typified by legally trained scholars applying the canons of legal proof and judicial argument to the defense of Christian belief. Greenleaf's Testimony of the Evangelists (1846) set the model for many subsequent works by legal apologists. He is distinguished[by whom?] as one who applied the canons of the ancient document rule to establish the authenticity of the gospel accounts, as well as cross-examination principles in assessing the testimony of those who bore witness to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. His style of reasoning is reflected in the apologetic works by John Warwick Montgomery (1931- ), Josh McDowell (1939- ), and Ross Clifford (1951- ).
Simon Greenleaf - Wikipedia Samuel Houghton? Did you mean Haughton? He was an ordained minister. Samuel Haughton - Wikipedia
great physiologist from the University of Dublin
Source and relevance? BTW you might want to to figure out the actual name of the school. Michael Green? The Reverand Canon Michael Green? Michael Green - Wikipedia(theologian) This is the best you got?
Attorneys are experts in the analysis of evidence. Atheists summarily reject any and all evidence contrary to atheist nihilism.
Two of these dudes aren't even lawyers. Where did you get this copypasta?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4597 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006
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Usually that is not the case, that's why attorneys rely on expert witnesses to explain their expert analysis of evidence. I notice that you didn't actually cite any actual evidence. You know, that could be independently verified.
Atheists summarily reject any and all evidence contrary to atheist nihilism. I don't know what atheists reject, summarily or otherwise. I have never heard of atheist nihilism, so whatever is contrary to it is a mystery. I notice you posted the same message in another thread. I sure hope you don't turn out to be a spam posting troll.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
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