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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5967
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 346 of 536 (916503)
03-05-2024 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Phat
03-05-2024 10:07 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
How arrogant!
Mormons are Christians! Just because it's not YOUR Jesus does not give you authority to deny that fact. I suppose that you also deny that Catholics and other denominations are also not Christians, like Faith always did (and candle2 also, as I seem to recall).
Some drink the dogma of another belief. Some become atheists and join atheist clubs.
Some make videos.
Same with fundies once the scales have fallen from their eyes.
So what's your point, Self-Appointed Arbiter of What is Christian?
 
Here is a deconversion testimonial from a few decades back.
It's the testimonial of a life-long Baptist boy who went to college and started dating a Catholic girl. He really cared for her a lot and was saddened that she was going to Hell for not being Baptist (because only Baptists are saved).
Then one day she broke down in tears. She explained to him that she really cared for him and was saddened that he was going to Hell for not being Catholic (because only Catholics are saved).
That woke him up! So he went to the college library and asked for the most complete history of Christianity that they had. The librarian asked him several times if he was really sure he wanted to read it and he insisted that he did, so she handed him this thick book, a complete history of Christianity. He read it in a month, at the end of which he wasn't sure if God existed, but if He did then he certainly couldn't be Christian.
That was his story and I related it as accurately as I can remember it (30 to 60 years ago is easy to remember; ten minutes ago not so much).
 
A fellow diner at two monthly skeptics and atheists breakfast gatherings has a similar wake-up story. He was Mormon and on his mission when he got into a conversation with a Jehovah's Witness missionary. He challenge with a "How do you know that you are right?" and got the same answer that he would have given to that same question, "Because I was guided by the Holy Spirit."
That had always seemed odd to me. All these different forms of Christianity (estimated at 45,000 in the world, 200 in the US), each one thinking that they are right and all the others got it wrong (yes, I know that is an oversimplification, but am I wrong?), and the reason they know that they have it right is through the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit does not seem to be very reliable nor consistent, since he gave each of the 45,000 different versions of Christianity a different story.
To quote the concluding punchline from a series of creationist videos: "Kinda makes you think, don't it?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 10:07 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 352 by candle2, posted 03-05-2024 11:49 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10155
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 347 of 536 (916504)
03-05-2024 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Phat
03-05-2024 1:45 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
Phat writes:
So what makes it illogical? Falsify it.
This demonstrates yet another imbalance in these types of discussions. Before the apologists will accept something like the Big Bang Theory they need all sorts of observable evidence. However, when the apologist makes a claim they expect it to be accepted as truth without a shred of reason or evidence to back it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 1:45 AM Phat has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10155
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 348 of 536 (916505)
03-05-2024 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by dwise1
03-05-2024 10:48 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
dwise1 writes:
That had always seemed odd to me. All these different forms of Christianity (estimated at 45,000 in the world, 200 in the US), each one thinking that they are right and all the others got it wrong (yes, I know that is an oversimplification, but am I wrong?), and the reason they know that they have it right is through the Holy Spirit.
For me, it was the wider picture of religiosity across all humanity. I suddenly realized that a Muslim or a Hindu probably believed just as strongly as any Christian. I also realized that if I had been born in some other country I may very well believe in the local religion as much as I believed in the local Christian beliefs that I actually was born into. It struck me that truth, if it exists, shouldn't be determined by geography.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2024 10:48 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2024 11:31 AM Taq has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 349 of 536 (916506)
03-05-2024 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Phat
03-05-2024 10:07 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
I know no one that met Jesus. You have a different definition of words and I understand what you are trying to see, but it is a childish use of language. So Mormon's are not Christians? So only Christians and their views of a deity are relevant?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 350 of 536 (916507)
03-05-2024 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Taq
03-05-2024 11:10 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
It struck me that truth, if it exists, shouldn't be determined by geography.
What we have learned over the millennia is that truth shouldn't be determined by religion. They get it wrong with bloody consequences too often.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Taq, posted 03-05-2024 11:10 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 11:56 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 351 of 536 (916508)
03-05-2024 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
03-05-2024 9:21 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
At least a little bit about science and the scientific method. A little about argumentation, logic and logical fallacies. The difference between logic and facts. That which we think is logical can be shown by evidence to be wrong.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 9:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 352 of 536 (916510)
03-05-2024 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by dwise1
03-05-2024 10:48 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
dwise, you wrote:
Mormons are Christians! Just because it's not YOUR
Jesus does not give you authority to deny that fact.
***You claim to be descended (and proud of it) from
chimpanzee type ancestors. Do you still resemble one?
It is not fitting for you to try and talk down to those of us
who are far above the caveman mentality of evolution.
ICANT worships God. You worship amoeba.
You need to show some respect to the Creator. You drink
His water and breathe His oxygen; yet, you refuse to show
Him any appreciation.
Such arrogant entitlement!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2024 10:48 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 11:59 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 355 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 12:08 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 356 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2024 12:28 PM candle2 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 353 of 536 (916511)
03-05-2024 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by AZPaul3
03-05-2024 11:31 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
AZPaul3 writes:
What we have learned over the millennia is that truth shouldn't be determined by religion.
Yes, but the basic cliche says that Jesus is a relationship and not a religion.
They get it wrong with bloody consequences too often.
So then we again ask "What is Truth"?
In the story, it is what Pilate asked Jesus. Even if we agreed for sake of argument that the stories were made up, the central focus of part of the story-line within the Gospels centered on what truth was.
Taq writes:
Before the apologists will accept something like the Big Bang Theory they need all sorts of observable evidence. However, when the apologist makes a claim they expect it to be accepted as truth without a shred of reason or evidence to back it up.
You have a point, but Faith and Evidence are not synonymous.
The scientific method, evidence, and healthy skepticism *do* lead to a more rational and less fervant response. Point taken.
Taq writes:
I suddenly realized that a Muslim or a Hindu probably believed just as strongly as any Christian. I also realized that if I had been born in some other country I may very well believe in the local religion as much as I believed in the local Christian beliefs that I actually was born into. It struck me that truth, if it exists, shouldn't be determined by geography.
Truth also should not be determined by the religion one grew up in.
Theo writes:
I know no one that met Jesus.
You really need to get out more. Perhaps you never want to get to know anyone who claims to be influenced by the Holy Spirit. If so, I can understand your isolation.
So what was it I was supposed to learn?
Theo writes:
At least a little bit about science and the scientific method. A little about argumentation, logic and logical fallacies. The difference between logic and facts. That which we think is logical can be shown by evidence to be wrong.
Point taken.
dwise1 writes:
Mormons are Christians! Just because it's not YOUR Jesus does not give you authority to deny that fact. I suppose that you also deny that Catholics and other denominations are also not Christians, like Faith always did (and candle2 also, as I seem to recall).
This steers us back into the question of what is truth and is it absolute or is it relative? (In the context of ICANTS topic, was the universe created through an absolute method or is there room for speculation?
dwise1 writes:
Same with fundies once the scales have fallen from their eyes.
So what's your point, Self-Appointed Arbiter of What is Christian?
I'll grant that I sound arrogant, but I look at it as confidant.
dwise1, relating a story writes:
...The librarian asked him several times if he was really sure he wanted to read it and he insisted that he did, so she handed him this thick book, a complete history of Christianity. He read it in a month, at the end of which he wasn't sure if God existed, but if He did then he certainly couldn't be Christian.
This gets back to the idea of whether G-d could be relational to whosoever in a unique and relative way or whether He must be "understood" in an absolute narrative.
dwise1 writes:
A fellow diner at two monthly skeptics and atheists breakfast gatherings has a similar wake-up story. He was Mormon and on his mission when he got into a conversation with a Jehovah's Witness missionary. He challenge with a "How do you know that you are right?" and got the same answer that he would have given to that same question, "Because I was guided by the Holy Spirit."
Good story! I suppose that I would never say such a response as that I am guided by the Holy Spirit unless perhaps I had fasted and prayed for a sizeable length of time, as the book of Danial reports Danial to have done. Even then, I would give my audience enough respect to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2024 11:31 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2024 12:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 354 of 536 (916512)
03-05-2024 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by candle2
03-05-2024 11:49 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
candle2, replying to dwise1 writes:
It is not fitting for you to try and talk down to those of us
who are far above the caveman mentality of evolution.
But is the argument over evolution versus creationism (or Creatorism) or is the argument over what is truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by candle2, posted 03-05-2024 11:49 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 355 of 536 (916513)
03-05-2024 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by candle2
03-05-2024 11:49 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
C2, addressing dwise1 writes:
You need to show some respect to the Creator. You drink
His water and breathe His oxygen; yet, you refuse to show
Him any appreciation.
This reminds me of a post I made in 2004, shortly after I first arrived at this Forum
Message 19
Phat:
Imagine a group of people in an Art Museum, admiring a painting. They all share the effect of having been touched by the work. Each may have an individual opinion on what the work means to them, and each point of view is equally valid and none more weighty or profound than any other. Now imagine the artist entering the room to speak. He begins to explain what he felt and experienced while painting the picture. He points out seemingly unconnected details. So is his view merely equally valid? I would argue that the artists point of view is a bit more profound and weighty than the opinions by the observers.
To a Christian, God is the artist. The sculptor. The writer. Indeed, the Director, Producer, and truly The Creator.He wrote the words. He defined the very concept and definition of meaning behind words. He created us as vessels of expression for a purpose. We are not merely evolved animals, for a Divine purpose exists. Sidelined once said to me that it is the dance that is important, and not the dancers. I disagree. The Creator loves His dancers. The universe is real, it is unimaginable, mysterious, and a true work of art.Let us allow the Creator to explain what He mean't. What He wants. Who He is. Who we are. Keep exploring and keep seeking by all means, but ask yourselves what answer you are seeking. We seek to know ourselves yet we are not mere observers in this creation. We too are part of the artwork. Cuz we sure did'nt paint it and we never can explain it like the artist can! (Another peek at my Worldview!)

Comments?

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5967
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 356 of 536 (916514)
03-05-2024 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by candle2
03-05-2024 11:49 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
You need to show some respect to the Creator. ... yet, you refuse to show
Him any appreciation.
That's really rich coming from a creationist who denies the Creation and tried to disprove it, hence denying the Creator in favor of your false creationist theology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by candle2, posted 03-05-2024 11:49 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 12:40 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 364 by candle2, posted 03-06-2024 8:33 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 357 of 536 (916515)
03-05-2024 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by dwise1
03-05-2024 12:28 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
I will agree with you that there is little logic in Creationism as taught in "Christian Colleges". I often get into debates with fellow Christians themselves over this issue.
Sproul explained the history of humanism and philosophers through the ages.
He may be biased but deserves a listen.
When Man Is God.
I don't worship nor follow RC Sproul, but I do consider his presentation.
He has a rational way of explaining philosophical concepts within the Christian Faith and also has a grasp of historical philosophy.
Keep in mind that our central argument (from my point of view at least) is "What Is Truth"? What do you think truth is. Is it evolving and continually uncertain? Is it driven solely by data and evidence? Should all religions die? Comments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2024 12:28 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Rahvin, posted 03-05-2024 1:11 PM Phat has replied
 Message 360 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2024 1:17 PM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 358 of 536 (916516)
03-05-2024 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Phat
03-05-2024 11:56 AM


Truth Is A Little Bird That Smells Awful.
Yes, but the basic cliche says that Jesus is a relationship and not a religion.
The illogic of the believer trying to win fake internet points.
This faked “relationship” IS your religion, and it has caused and supported more war and bloody evil than any other “relationship” in human history. My god, Phat, you are touting a relationship with a ghost; a conception of you yourself wrapped in the shawl of righteous indignation. This why you and yours cannot be trusted with reality.
So then we again ask "What is Truth"?
Truth is in the eye of the beholder. The closest humans can come to truth is a scientific consensus.
Even if we agreed for sake of argument that the stories were made up, the central focus of part of the story-line within the Gospels centered on what truth was.
No. The gospels are apocryphal and reflect only what they wanted the “truth” to be. Their truth has always been false fostered by self-serving platitudes from their fantasies.
There is no “truth” in this universe. Not in the sense you and your religious cultists insist, meaning ultimate knowledge. There is only the scientific evidence, Phat. Witness testimony of glad feelings when you think really really hard on Jesus are not evidence. Your religious truth, ALL religious truth, is false. Your fantasies have no capacity to decide the value or the fate of anything.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 11:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 359 of 536 (916517)
03-05-2024 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Phat
03-05-2024 12:40 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
The truth is what the facts are.
We dont know all facts. We can only represent our beliefs (what we are convinced are facts) and why we find those beliefs convincing (why we think those beliefs represent facts) and with how much confidence. And of course we can say "I dont know."
Phat, I still don't think you understand the word "logic." I mean the literal definition as it applies to debate and argument. You continually use the word in its colloquial sense, meaning "something that makes sense and sounds consistent with my existing beliefs." Logic is actually a rigorous check on the validity of an argument. Only its validity, not its truth. You can make an illogical argument with a true (but invalid) conclusion. You can make a logically consistent argument that leads to a false conclusion.
Religion as always claims knowledge of facts that either are not actually known or that specifically contradict other high-confidence facts. Faith is unjustified belief, an assertion of fact that skips the "convincing evidence and argument" part, and when it tries to justify itself always relies on actually-illogical arguments riddled with fallacies, or false premises, or ignores contrary evidence and argument, or a mix of all of the above.
Should all religion die? If religion is based on faith, the attempt to justify belief without evidence, then yes. Faith is and can only be lies. Even if you have faith in a true fact, the reason for the belief would be a lie, and the truth of the belief would be a coincidence.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 12:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 360 of 536 (916518)
03-05-2024 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Phat
03-05-2024 12:40 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
Sproul explained the history of humanism and philosophers through the ages.
You pay actual money to listen to this crap? I know Sproul. I will not listen to any more of his self-serving apologist fantasies. His is the evil that poisons the human intellect with fantasy thinking and insists on predetermined conclusions.
Next time you feel like forking over your wages to some priest to read his bullshit give it to a street beggar instead. Much more productive for humanity.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 12:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 2:12 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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