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Author Topic:   The Trump Post-Presidency and Insurrection
Percy
Member
Posts: 22614
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 421 of 438 (916245)
02-27-2024 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Taq
02-26-2024 12:37 PM


Re: I was wondering...
Taq writes:
Omnivorous writes:
Also, the American left has been without a violent fringe element for years.
One could argue that the violent BLM protests could be placed on the doorstep of US liberals. I don't think it is as simple as that, but I think it should still be something that US liberals acknowledge and strive to reduce.
I'm not sure that a significant proportion of the 2020 BLM protests were violent. Minneapolis-Saint Paul, the site of the George Floyd murder, was hit hard, but I think most BLM protests were peaceful. The article At least 25 Americans were killed during protests and political unrest in 2020 | Protest | The Guardian uses the database of the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data project to conclude that nine people were killed during BLM protests during 2020, which is nine people too many but nowhere near the number one would expect had thousands of the protests been violent. The article continues:
quote:
ACLED found that the overwhelming majority of the more than 9.000 Black Lives Matter demonstrations that took place across the US after the killing of George Floyd have been peaceful. News reports at the height of demonstrations over Floyd’s killing cited dozens of deaths in connection with protests, but many of those turned out to be examples of deadly crimes carried out in the vicinity of protests, rather than directly related to the demonstrations themselves, the researchers concluded.
Police violence against the BLM protestors should also be remembered.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Taq, posted 02-26-2024 12:37 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by Phat, posted 02-29-2024 6:53 AM Percy has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 422 of 438 (916257)
02-28-2024 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Taq
02-26-2024 12:37 PM


Re: I was wondering...
Taq writes:
Omnivorous writes:
Also, the American left has been without a violent fringe element for years.
One could argue that the violent BLM protests could be placed on the doorstep of US liberals. I don't think it is as simple as that, but I think it should still be something that US liberals acknowledge and strive to reduce.
Hi Taq. I had to think about that.
It wasn't Black Leftists Matter.
I don't see why a mass protest movement by a racial minority subject to being shot (unarmed) or choked to death by a cop is a liberal responsibility. As I recall, until recently, violence at political protests, including during the BLM protests, was condemned on all sides. Conservatives pressed liberals to condemn the movement itself, using their refusal to paint them as pro-violence and anti-police. Now, of course, since 1/6/2020, the GOP supports violent protest and considers the Capitol police and the FBI to be thugs. And as Percy suggests above, the police response to BLM protests was sometimes excessive and provocative.
Perhaps one could argue that liberals should not encourage the belief that racist policing is wrong and that the wronged have the right to protest. That seems contrary to both the truth and the Constitution.
The stronger argument is that it is conservatives who bear a moral burden for championing quasi-military policing and blocking reforms that would address the institutionalized racism. The heavily armed police presence for the D.C. BLM protests vs the late, weak response to the 1/6 insurrectionists is instructive. As more than one pundit noted, a thousand angry black men smashing their way into the Capitol would have been shot.
As a counterpoint, the close election between Gore and Bush in 2000 had way more potential of being the product of a rigged election, but there weren't any Democrats participating in a violent protest at the US Capitol, or anywhere.
It's fascinating to recall that 1/6 got a rehearsal in November 2000 with the Brooks Brothers Riot, when busloads of GOP operatives stormed (yes, including violence) the Miami-Dade County recount and succeeded in stopping it; thus there was time for Bush to win a SCOTUS stay of the recount, on the grounds it might cause him irreparable harm, and later SCOTUS could rule there was no time for a recount.
That cast has reassembled. Be afraid.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Taq, posted 02-26-2024 12:37 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Taq, posted 02-28-2024 6:00 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 424 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-28-2024 6:02 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 423 of 438 (916258)
02-28-2024 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Omnivorous
02-28-2024 5:47 PM


Re: I was wondering...
Omnivorous writes:
I don't see why a mass protest movement by a racial minority subject to being shot (unarmed) or choked to death by a cop is a liberal responsibility.
The debates and discussions about the BLM movement were strongly correlated with partisan politics. I don't know of any polls, but I would be absolutely surprised if the people in those protests were more than 5% Trump voters. Here in the PNW there were completely zany takeovers in Portland and Seattle, and again, I highly doubt those were Trump voters.
All I was trying to point out is that crazy is not limited to just to conservatism. I think there is certainly a difference in quantity, however. I also think there is a difference in kind between the BLM movement and the 1/6 insurrection. It's one thing to protest excessive police brutality. It is quite another to use violence as a way of stopping the transfer of power in a democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Omnivorous, posted 02-28-2024 5:47 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by Omnivorous, posted 02-28-2024 6:27 PM Taq has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 424 of 438 (916259)
02-28-2024 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Omnivorous
02-28-2024 5:47 PM


Re: I was wondering...
Brooks Brothers Riot was in 2000 not 2020. Typo

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Omnivorous, posted 02-28-2024 5:47 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Taq, posted 02-28-2024 6:03 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 425 of 438 (916260)
02-28-2024 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by Tanypteryx
02-28-2024 6:02 PM


Re: I was wondering...
Tanypteryx writes:
Brooks Brothers Riot
I hear "Brooks Brothers Riot" and all I can picture in my head is a bunch of yuppies in overpriced suits getting into a slap fight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-28-2024 6:02 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-28-2024 6:13 PM Taq has replied
 Message 429 by Omnivorous, posted 02-28-2024 6:41 PM Taq has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 426 of 438 (916261)
02-28-2024 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Taq
02-28-2024 6:03 PM


Re: I was wondering...
Yep, me too. This was about the same time as Enron collapsed there were protests about that.
I always thought it was too bad they didn't name it "Black Lives Matter, Too!"

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Taq, posted 02-28-2024 6:03 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Omnivorous, posted 02-28-2024 6:36 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied
 Message 430 by xongsmith, posted 02-29-2024 1:27 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied
 Message 434 by Taq, posted 02-29-2024 6:20 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 427 of 438 (916262)
02-28-2024 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Taq
02-28-2024 6:00 PM


Re: I was wondering...
Taq writes:
All I was trying to point out is that crazy is not limited to just to conservatism.
Fair enough. That's what I meant when I said we have kooks on the left.
But I can list a number of right wing movements that are good candidates for nurturing assassins. Proud Boys, Sovereign Citizens, militias, MAGA -- folks filled with racial and partisan rage and an obvious or even announced proclivity to violence.
There's nothing like that on the left.
By the way, I don't consider myself a leftist.
I'm orthagonal. Everyone is wrong.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Taq, posted 02-28-2024 6:00 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by Taq, posted 02-29-2024 6:17 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 436 by dwise1, posted 02-29-2024 8:18 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 428 of 438 (916263)
02-28-2024 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by Tanypteryx
02-28-2024 6:13 PM


Re: I was wondering...
Tanypteryx writes:
I always thought it was too bad they didn't name it "Black Lives Matter, Too!"
That was the spirit of it, but I doubt the "Too" would have improved their reception on the right, which is a racist monolith.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-28-2024 6:13 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 429 of 438 (916264)
02-28-2024 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Taq
02-28-2024 6:03 PM


Re: I was wondering...
Taq writes:
I hear "Brooks Brothers Riot" and all I can picture in my head is a bunch of yuppies in overpriced suits getting into a slap fight.
Gimme a front row seat and a tub of popcorn ... kinda like watching Speaker Johnson and the Keystone Congress.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Taq, posted 02-28-2024 6:03 PM Taq has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2603
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 430 of 438 (916265)
02-29-2024 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 426 by Tanypteryx
02-28-2024 6:13 PM


Re: I was wondering...
Tanypteryx writes:
I always thought it was too bad they didn't name it "Black Lives Matter, Too!"
As I have posted in FB more than once, if you're going to add another letter to the acronym, make it an 'A', as in "Black Lives Also Matter".
Police bullets and all...

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-28-2024 6:13 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 431 of 438 (916266)
02-29-2024 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by Percy
02-27-2024 5:11 PM


First @ Second Amendments Unplugged
I made a mistake. This was supposed to be in Phat Unplugged.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Percy, posted 02-27-2024 5:11 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by PaulK, posted 02-29-2024 7:32 AM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 432 of 438 (916268)
02-29-2024 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by Phat
02-29-2024 6:53 AM


Re: First @ Second Amendments Unplugged
Taken to Phat’s thread

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by Phat, posted 02-29-2024 6:53 AM Phat has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 433 of 438 (916310)
02-29-2024 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Omnivorous
02-28-2024 6:27 PM


Re: I was wondering...
Omnivorous writes:
By the way, I don't consider myself a leftist.

I'm orthagonal. Everyone is wrong.
Careful, someone might confuse you with a Libertarian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Omnivorous, posted 02-28-2024 6:27 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Omnivorous, posted 02-29-2024 7:24 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


(3)
Message 434 of 438 (916311)
02-29-2024 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by Tanypteryx
02-28-2024 6:13 PM


Re: I was wondering...
Tanypteryx writes:
I always thought it was too bad they didn't name it "Black Lives Matter, Too!"
For anyone with a familiarity with the English language, the "too" is implied. No one accuses people at a 5K race to support breast cancer patients of being against those with prostate cancer. It is interesting that a certain faction of our political landscape think civil rights are a zero sum game.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-28-2024 6:13 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 435 of 438 (916313)
02-29-2024 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by Taq
02-29-2024 6:17 PM


Re: I was wondering...
I caucus with the lefties.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Taq, posted 02-29-2024 6:17 PM Taq has not replied

  
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