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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 61 of 536 (915918)
02-20-2024 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by ICANT
02-17-2024 9:07 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
And you think that little pea sized universe had enough energy packed into it to create every thing in 2 trillion Galaxies + how many more trillion may be out there.
What you can't seem to understand is that it doesn't matter what we think or believe. What matters is what the evidence demonstrates, and it clearly demonstrates that all of the energy in the universe was once in a very, very small area.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 9:07 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 02-20-2024 12:24 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 62 of 536 (915919)
02-20-2024 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICANT
02-17-2024 8:48 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
Every time they work on the telescope the known universe gets bigger.
False. The size of the universe has been about the same for many decades now.
What has changed is estimated number of galaxies within the universe. The size of the universe has not changed. As telescopes get more and more sensitive they are able to detect dimmer and dimmer galaxies, hence the increase.
The problem is that scientist can only fathom the universe being only 13.8 billion years old.
In the same way, NASA scientists can't fathom an Earth with a diameter of 15 billion miles. Why? Because the Earth isn't that big.
The reason scientists have arrived at 13.8 billion years is because of measurements, just as measurements led to our current estimation of the diameter of Earth.
quote:
Measurements by the WMAP satellite can help determine the age of the universe. The detailed structure of the cosmic microwave background fluctuations depends on the current density of the universe, the composition of the universe and its expansion rate. As of 2013, WMAP determined these parameters with an accuracy of better than than 1.5%. In turn, knowing the composition with this precision, we can estimate the age of the universe to about 0.4%: 13.77 ± 0.059 billion years!
WMAP- Age of the Universe
If you want to claim that age is wrong, then show how the measurements and math are wrong. "I just can't believe it" is not evidence.
If you remember back in 2008 I made the statement 'I believe the universe has always existed in some form just not necessarily as we see it today'.

I haven't changed my mind.
Reality doesn't care what you believe. There are people who believed in 2008 that the Earth is flat. They still believe that. The Earth is still a globe.
That is one thing Einstein was correct about believing the universe always existed. If he could have met me after 1950 before he Died I would have made him a happy man.
Einstein also called that his worst mistake.
If you want to convince us that we are wrong about the age of the unvierse then you are going to have to explain three sets of data:
1. The consistent correlation between galactic redshift and the distance to those galaxies.
2. The cosmic microwave background. Both its temperature and power spectrum.
3. The ratio of light isotopes in the universe.
quote:
Evidence for the Big Bang
1. Redshift of Galaxies
The light we observe from galaxies has been stretched by the time it reaches us. It looks redder than it should. This redshift is the result of galaxies moving away from us. Observations show that pretty much everything in the Universe is moving apart. The redshift of distant galaxies tells us the Universe is expanding.
If you could wind time backwards, you would see galaxies getting closer together. If you could go back far enough, everything in the Universe would have been in one place.
2. Microwave Background
A long, long time ago, the whole Universe was very hot. As it grew in the size, the heat left a "glow" which fills the entire Universe. The Big Bang theory predicts this glow should still exist. It also predicts that we should be able to detect this glow as microwave light.
Scientist have found this Cosmic Microwave Background. They have accurately measured it using orbiting detectors. It is very good evidence that the Big Bang theory is correct.
3. Mixture of Elements
Some chemical elements were created soon after the Big Bang. Elements like hydrogen and helium. The Big Bang theory predicts how much of each element was made in the early universe. When astronomers look at very old galaxies and stars, the amount of each chemical they see agrees with the Big Bang theory.
Evidence for the Big Bang | The Schools' Observatory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 8:48 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 63 of 536 (915921)
02-20-2024 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ICANT
02-19-2024 8:41 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
All science is trying to do is prove that God was not necessary to exist.
Baloney. Here is the guy who founded the Big Bang Theory:
Hint: He's the guy in the middle
That's George Lemaitre, and he was a Jesuit priest. He was the first to publish on the Big Bang Theory.
You may want to look around today's Christian world of theology. You seem to be in the minority position where discovering a natural process somehow indicates that God is not involved. It would seem that germs causing disease and natural processes producing weather would be much more serious problems for your position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2024 8:41 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 02-20-2024 12:28 PM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 64 of 536 (915922)
02-20-2024 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Taq
02-20-2024 11:54 AM


Re: By the Numbers
Well, we cant conflate evidence(tentative) with belief. What we can do is speculate.
As a believer, I maintain that God was the uncaused first cause. If I CANT has a point, it is that the vast energy that is involved in the origin of the universe went from virtually infinitely small to infinitely vast, God (as Creator) would be the source of that energy.
A pantheist might believe that the universe and God are one and the same, and would conflate the energy and the energizer.
The honest response is to say that we dont know.
I CANT is the type of believer that will always go with the Bible over scientific study. I try and find a consensus between the two, but am a Cosmological Creationist in that I believe that God created all that is seen and unseen and that He is the source of wisdom.
If critical thinking is the best method to achieve knowledge, it certainly does not always involve wisdom. Data and Evidence cant over rule our minds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Taq, posted 02-20-2024 11:54 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Taq, posted 02-20-2024 12:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 65 of 536 (915923)
02-20-2024 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Taq
02-20-2024 12:21 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Taq writes:
It would seem that germs causing disease and natural processes producing weather would be much more serious problems for your position.
I don't know about ICANTs position, nor do I wish to conflate science with belief, but I do believe that there is a spiritual "war" or competition as such as that death and disease originated with (from) the rebel rather than the Creator.
And I dont mean to suggest Dualism. There is a Creator and there is an Imitator.
If I dare use any critical thinking at all, I might attempt to falsify the Imitator (The Devil Made Me Do It) while respecting my belief in a Creator. jar used to always tell me to throw God away. I never listened to him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Taq, posted 02-20-2024 12:21 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 66 of 536 (915924)
02-20-2024 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
02-20-2024 12:24 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Phat writes:
Well, we cant conflate evidence(tentative) with belief. What we can do is speculate.
We can also measure.
If I CANT has a point, it is that the vast energy that is involved in the origin of the universe went from virtually infinitely small to infinitely vast, God (as Creator) would be the source of that energy.
For the moment, let's just grant the supposition that the energy at the beginning of the universe came from God. How does that change the age of the universe? How does it change any of the evidence for the Big Bang Theory?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 02-20-2024 12:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 02-20-2024 12:35 PM Taq has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 67 of 536 (915925)
02-20-2024 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Taq
02-20-2024 12:29 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Taq writes:
For the moment, let's just grant the supposition that the energy at the beginning of the universe came from God. How does that change the age of the universe? How does it change any of the evidence for the Big Bang Theory?
It really doesnt. The only point of contention between you and ICANT might be what qualifies as evidence.
I never try and learn sciencee from the Bible, but I dont think it to be a futile attempt in totality. After all, whom better to ask about evidence than the the One who is *evident* in your heart and mind?
Percy mentions that believers arrive(often) at different conclusions than non believers. One would think that the evidence remains the same. The belief is all that changes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Taq, posted 02-20-2024 12:29 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Taq, posted 02-20-2024 12:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 68 of 536 (915926)
02-20-2024 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
02-20-2024 12:35 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Phat writes:
It really doesnt. The only point of contention between you and ICANT might be what qualifies as evidence.
From everything I have seen, ICANT rejects the Big Bang Theory even if it is granted that God created the energy found at the beginning of the process. ICANT thinks that his intuitive beliefs trump scientific observations. That seems to be the hurdle.
I never try and learn sciencee from the Bible, but I dont think it to be a futile attempt in totality. After all, whom better to ask about evidence than the the One who is *evident* in your heart and mind?
Most people have found that it is better to ask reality how reality is put together. Your method hasn't had the best results:
quote:
But to want to affirm that the Sun, in very truth, is at the centre of the universe and only rotates on its axis without traveling from east to west, and that the Earth is situated in the third sphere and revolves very swiftly around the Sun, is a very dangerous attitude and one calculated not only to arouse all Scholastic philosophers and theologians but also to injure our hold faith by contradicting the Scriptures….
--Cardinal Bellarmine, 1615
Either you believe that the Earth doesn't move as the Bible states or you believe in the satanic Heliocentrism, I guess.
Percy mentions that believers arrive(often) at different conclusions than non believers. One would think that the evidence remains the same.
That's false. ICANT refuses to address any of the evidence for the Big Bang.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 02-20-2024 12:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2024 9:36 PM Taq has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 69 of 536 (915929)
02-20-2024 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
02-20-2024 11:47 AM


Re: By the Numbers
Hi phat,
Phat writes:
I have no opinion except to say that I believe that Jesus *is* the living word. I wont listen to anyone who does not believe that Jesus is alive or who believes that the Bible is full of errors. My critics may suggest that this belief severely limits me and that, in their words, I am willfully ignorant.
Let me see how many of those I can hit.
I believe Jesus is alive not in a grave somewhere.
I believe that Jesus is the living word.
I believe that Jesus and God are one and the same just different Manifestations.
I believe Jesus will be judge and jury at the judgment as well as the Great White Throne judgment.
I believe Jesus will not have any problem at all with saying depart from me ye worker of iniquity I never
knew you. Because of what he suffered in the garden and on the cross.
I believe the Bible contains the words of snakes, Jackasses, demons, the devil, men, women, and God.
I believe that the NASB50 version is the closest to being a word for word translation of the Bible with the
KJV a close second.
I do believe there are translation errors in the Bible but no other kind.
The # אחד one being translated as first ראשון in Genesis 1:5 you can see the difference in the two Hebrew words. I have no idea what the translators were thinking.
Just like in Genesis 1:2 and 3;1 translating היתה as was. Do you see was in definition below.
Which means:
to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
(Qal) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
Those are what I look for as they change the text of the original. Had Genesis 1:2 been translated as it should have been it would read:
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was become without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
That then does not contradict the first verse as being a statement of a completed job rather than the mess at genesis 1:2, it also removes the contradiction between 2 Peter 3:5-7 and Jeremiah 4:23-26.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 02-20-2024 11:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Tangle, posted 02-20-2024 3:17 PM ICANT has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 70 of 536 (915938)
02-20-2024 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ICANT
02-20-2024 1:25 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
I do believe there are translation errors in the Bible but no other kind.
It can be easily proven - I do mean proven - that there are errors in the bible that are not translation errors.
Have you ever read the New Testament horizontally? That is, take 4 bibles open at the gospels and read them one by one, side by side one paragraph at a time. If you don't want to try that yourself I can give you a link to Ehrman who has and you can check it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2024 1:25 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 02-20-2024 3:48 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2024 9:10 PM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22606
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 71 of 536 (915940)
02-20-2024 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Tangle
02-20-2024 3:17 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Tangle writes:
Have you ever read the New Testament horizontally? That is, take 4 bibles open at the gospels and read them one by one, side by side one paragraph at a time. If you don't want to try that yourself I can give you a link to Ehrman who has and you can check it.
It's called a Bible synopsis when they place corresponding gospel passages side-by-side. I have a hardcopy one and prefer that. I couldn't find Ehrman's online version, but here's one that uses the New English Translation:
It's a PDF. The side-by-side portion begins on page 22 and is rotated to fit better. PDF readers allow you to rotate the view.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Tangle, posted 02-20-2024 3:17 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 02-20-2024 5:26 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 72 of 536 (915953)
02-20-2024 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Percy
02-20-2024 3:48 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Thanks Percy, that link doesn't open for mr :-(
Here's an Ehrman video of it
abe It does open but it takes time 300+ pages

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 02-20-2024 3:48 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 73 of 536 (915959)
02-20-2024 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Tangle
02-20-2024 3:17 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Hi Charlie
Tangle writes:
Have you ever read the New Testament horizontally
No. I have a hard enough time reading English and Greek parallel and English and Hebrew parallel.
Tangle writes:
It can be easily proven
Which Greek Text and which Hebrew text?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Tangle, posted 02-20-2024 3:17 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 02-21-2024 3:09 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 74 of 536 (915960)
02-20-2024 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Taq
02-20-2024 12:43 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
That's false. ICANT refuses to address any of the evidence for the Big Bang.
I got no problem with science trying to figure out how God created the universe and earth, none whatsoever.
But why would we need a big bang to start with it causes too many problems.
If they wanted to say that some time /point in past duration God started creating the universe and everything in it and this is how we think he did it I would be completely satisfied with that.
But that will never happen because to most of them God does not exist.
So, they will just act like a bunch of cats chasing their tails and getting no where trying to get the energy required to furnish the material to build the universe. But you can't get something from nothing Science has already proved that.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Taq, posted 02-20-2024 12:43 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Taq, posted 02-21-2024 11:18 AM ICANT has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 75 of 536 (915961)
02-21-2024 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by ICANT
02-20-2024 9:10 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
Which Greek Text and which Hebrew text?
It doesn't matter, pick any text in any language, whatever you prefer. If you prefer KJB, use 4 of those. Or use 4 different versions it doesn't matter. Just read the four authors side by side passage by passage. The differences are not caused by translation. They're differences in the stories themselves - not just textual differences, they're contradictions, some trivial some critical.
If you don't want to do that just watch someone who has done it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AymnA526j9U

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2024 9:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2024 9:01 AM Tangle has replied

  
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