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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8656
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 46 of 537 (915837)
02-18-2024 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Omnivorous
02-18-2024 4:37 PM


Re: By the Numbers
This is a religion thread. He is allowed to use scripture in place of evidence. He is allowed to interpret that scripture to fit his desired narrative. He can magic away any objections. He can lie. This will not be discussion. This will be proselytizing.
We can expect some comedic value but no knowledge or enlightenment.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 6077
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 47 of 537 (915838)
02-18-2024 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Omnivorous
02-18-2024 4:37 PM


Re: By the Numbers
And how big are the angels?
As big or small as they need to be. That's how they cheat the system.
Just as God could have created the universe with whatever false "history" he wanted, including having created it only five minutes ago with all our false memories complete and intact of things that never actually happened.
"With God, all things are possible." No kiddin'!

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 48 of 537 (915839)
02-18-2024 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ICANT
02-18-2024 1:16 AM


Re: Does it matter
ICANT writes:
The word christian only appears 3 times in the bible.
​In Acts 11:26 The disciples were called little Christos because they were living a life like Christ did. Are you living a life like Christ did? He was perfect I am far from perfect yet, I won't be perfect until I inhabit my new body.
Firstly the word "Christ" is a title from the Latin as opposed to the Hebrew word "Messiah" which I would assume that you know more about than I would. The way you describe yourself is simply one specific phrase to define your particular way of understanding Christianity.
ICANT writes:
Would you please explain where I misquoted the scriptures or mis-represented what they say. Don't be bashful about it I can take constructive criticism any time.
You didn't misquote Scripture. However, Genesis isn't to be read as a science text or even a newspaper. It is an ancient mythology that still has deep meaning. Again, the Bible is a library of 66 books, at least in our version of it. It is a narrative of humans working towards a greater understanding of their deity. THe early Jews were looking for the most powerful god amongst a plethora of gods. It was only much later that they became monotheistic. Why would you read Genesis in the same way that you might understand Leviticus, Isaiah or the Gospels?
The argument that God commanded genocide because Yahweh didn't want the pagan nations to negatively doesn't hold water. Jesus lived in a land brutally dominated by the Romans with all of their deities and yet Jesus told His followers to "turn the other cheek" and respond to them in love as it was about winning their hearts and not about beating them in battle.
To understand Jesus in the NT we need to be able to reference what Jesus said in the OT and to understand the OT we need to understand it thorough the lens of what we read Jesus saying in the NT and specifically in the Gospels.
However we understand the Christian faith it remains a faith. I put my faith in Jesus ovewr a literal understaning of the Bible.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


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 Message 30 by ICANT, posted 02-18-2024 1:16 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 49 of 537 (915843)
02-18-2024 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ICANT
02-18-2024 2:04 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
Everything if I am going to show that Jesus created everything that exists.
Firstly I don't know whether or not God/Jesus created everything that exists. As a matter of interest it would be neat to know, but we can't know. You pick a verse from the Bible and treat that as a statement of literal fact and certain knowledge.
Can you tell me what difference it actually makes to our faith? Does it diminish in any way the teachings or the life of Jesus in the Gospels, or how the writers of the Epistles interpreted the man Jesus?
It matters to you because you prioritize your understanding of Bible at the expense of what Jesus said and did in the Gospels.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 02-18-2024 2:04 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 50 of 537 (915860)
02-19-2024 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by dwise1
02-18-2024 6:20 PM


Re: By the Numbers
I wouldn't expect God to resort to "tricking" me. I do enough of that to myself all of the time, anyway!
jar and I used to disagree on the idea of God being Good (my belief) and God being "complete" (Both good and evil).
If Jesus (Gods human character) created the universe, why did He allow evil to exist?
Why did He allow Hitler, Putin, and Stalin to exist and inflict so much misery on humanity?
For some of us, its easier to hand-wave the belief away and accept full responsibility for the future of the planet.
But then you still have to deal with creationists.
And Gods original chosen people are even behaving badly!! Oy Vey!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 51 of 537 (915861)
02-19-2024 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by ICANT
02-18-2024 2:04 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Percy writes:
Have you considered the possibility that God exists but the Bible was written by men and is not about Him.
ICANT writes:
No I have never thought about that. I have always known it was written by 44 different men over a period of 1800 years.
When I read it they sure talk about God a lot as if the plot was about Him.
I also know the Hebrew Bible did not have words separated by a space, nor was there spaces between sentences, there was no paragraphs just one long sentence in each book. Then the scribes had to copy those , then along come the translators and many let their beliefs ger in the way of their translating. That is the reason I acquire a Bible language diploma so I could read what was written not what some translator said it did. And I have been studying the last 60 years
Are there translation errors. Yes
Are there errors in division of chapters, and verses. Yes
Any thing man has his hands on can get messed up and usually does.
I have some questions for you, ICANT. I wanted to discuss the Christian philosophy of good and evil. These two definitions get tossed around a lot in modern day secular vernacular.
Food tastes good.(or not) People are judged by others as either good or not so good. (I could go on...)
According to Genesis, God Himself was T=0. In fact, God was before zero since He created T=0.
It is sometimes known as the uncaused first cause. (Why? BE-Cause.) Let there be light! In the Beginning, God....So then we get to the story of Adam & Eve and the garden and the two trees.
  • The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good and Evil
  • The Tree Of Life.
Peter Kreeft, a respected Catholic Apologist, states that God never directly created evil but only the possibility of evil, (which I suppose is almost the same thing) and that Satan(Lucifer) actualized that possibility, setting up what we now know as spiritual warfare.
At least that's how I see it.
One question for you, I CANT. Do you basically agree with Peter Kreeft in that God created the *possibility of evil* and that Lucifer actualized it, setting up the Tree of Knowledge and the whole Biblical Narrative?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 02-18-2024 2:04 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member (Idle past 288 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 52 of 537 (915883)
02-19-2024 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
02-19-2024 9:09 AM


Re: By the Numbers
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
One question for you, I CANT. Do you basically agree with Peter Kreeft in that God created the *possibility of evil* and that Lucifer actualized it, setting up the Tree of Knowledge and the whole Biblical Narrative?
That is a very good Question.
I have discussed the question and answer with many people.
The answer varies according to whether a person believes what they are told or if they believe what the Bible says
I have been told that God could not evil because He is too Good to create evil.
I have been told the devil fell from something and created evil.
I believe what I read in the Bible, so lets take a look and see what it says.
Paul writes:
In Ephesians 3:9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Paul said Jesus created all things.
John writes:
In Revelation 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
John recorded that The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, in verse 10 said God/Lord created all things.
John writes:
In John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John believed Jesus created everything.
Paul writes:
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
συνίστημι is translated consist and means to band together.
Not only did He create all things, by Him all things exist.
That means He supplies all the dark energy, and dark matter that causes the universe to still exist. One day He will say enough already and this universe will melt with fervent heat which was prophesied over 2,000 years ago. I think science figured that out a few years back.
I wanted to tie this to my opening post to present that Jesus/God in the flesh created all things.
Some people want to believe "all things" means only all things they decide that He created.
I ask people what part of all things means just some things.
Now to the origin of evil.
Isaiah writes:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Pay attention to what was created and what was not created.
Isaiah is quoting what God said. I can find no reason that a prophet would make such a statement on his own.
God is light pure energy so light did not have to be created.
God created the darkness found at Genesis 1:2.
God makes peace.
God created evil. His own words not mine.
God said He did all these things, not some of them.
If I believe God, which I do, I don't have a choice.
So, what did God create that was evil?
John writes:
In chapter 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John said the devil was a murderer from his creation and the father of lies.
So the Devil was evil from his creation.
If He was going to create mankind and give them a choice He had to create that choice.
Has the devil ever disobeyed God? No because he is doing exactly what he was created to do. That is to give mankind a choice between good and evil.
Where did mankind have a choice between good and evil?
Only one man ever had that choice.
Paul writes:
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
This man was perfect no sin in him, or the universe
moses writes:
Genesis 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
לנפש being
חיה׃ existing
I wish the translators had translated those last two words instead of adding their beliefs to the text. From here out soul and spirit become one and the same which they are not and cause much confusion in understanding the Bible text.
Any way he became a living being.
this living being that was formed from the dust of the ground was placed in a garden and given the choice between good and evil. The woman was not given that choice.
moses writes:
Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The Woman was not present as she had not been cloned from a part of the man;s body yet.
moses writes:
Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
So God took a piece of bone from the man and cloned a woman from that bone.
The first cloning to take place.
In chapter 3 the serpent comes walking up to the woman and convinces her that she will become like God knowing good and evil and her eyes will be opened if she eats the forbidden fruit. The devils first approach was to question Gods word by asking her a question. Just like people today question God's Word.
She ate the fruit and nothing happened. She took some to her husband and gave it to him and told him how good it was. Moses didn't write it but I would like to take a little liberty here by inserting my thoughts on the situation.
My thoughts: the man had been alone for an undetermined amount of duration
before God cloned the woman and brought her to him and they had been together for an undetermined amount of duration and now his thoughts she is going to die and I am going to be left here alone with all these animals. He makes the decision to eat the fruit and die with her. He made a choice between good (obeying God) and evil (disobeying God].
Thus that sin of disobeying brought sin into the universe and condemned every thing in it to death including the universe as well as the inhabitants of the earth
quote:
Hebrews 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
John writes:
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John tells us we are condemned already and gives the reason for that condemnation.
The sin of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 doomed all mankind to the lake of fire.
The only way a person can overcome that condemnation is to Trust Jesus to save them and be born again of the spirit of God.
The only choice we have is to change our destination and the ticket has been paid for already all we have to do is pick it up.
Now back to that snake that the devil entered into and talked to the woman through and the man and woman in the garden.
moses writes:
Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
So their eyes were opened and they realized they were naked. They tried to cover up their sin. But you can't hide your sins from God.
Along comes God and called to the man who thought he had hid from God but didn't.
Now the blame game begins. The woman blamed the serpent, and the man blamed the woman. But it did not matter they were kicked out of the garden.
Now to the serpent.
moses writes:
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
So God told the serpent he would crawl on his belly from then on.
Well they still do but scientist say they did walk in the past.
AI Buddy writes:
Snakes did have legs millions of years ago. Fossils reveal that their ancestors once roamed the Earth with functional legs.
However, over time, snakes underwent significant adaptations, and their legs gradually disappeared. The exact reasons for this leg loss are still a subject of scientific study.
Now to the comment on "Lucifer actualized it".
“Lucifer” is a Latin word meaning light-bearer, from lux meaning light and fero meaning to carry. It found its way into the KJV and the NKJV through the Vulgate version of the Bible.
Isaiah writes:
Isaiah 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Since God determines who is in power and who is not and this is a proverb against the king of Babylon it has nothing to do with the devil although mankind decided the devil had to fall and create evil in doing so because they could not believe God created evil as He said he did they have tried to make this verse to refer to the king of Babylon and the devil.
But pay very close attention to verse 16 where it says "is this the man".
If Isaiah is talking about the devil why would he refer to him as a man because the devil is no man he is an angel.
Hope that clarifies it for you as you mentioned this in the past.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 02-19-2024 9:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 02-20-2024 1:56 AM ICANT has replied
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ICANT
Member (Idle past 288 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 53 of 537 (915887)
02-19-2024 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
02-19-2024 9:09 AM


Re: By the Numbers
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
According to Genesis, God Himself was T=0. In fact, God was before zero since He created T=0.
It is sometimes known as the uncaused first cause. (Why? BE-Cause.) Let there be light! In the Beginning, God...
Time did not exist in eternity past as it will not exist in the eternal future. In fact God is still in the first light period and light periods and dark periods are for the animals and humans. We have to rest and sleep but our new body will need no sleep or rest in the future.
Time is not a thing like space, dirt, water, or anything else time is a concept of mankind that he devised to be able to measure the duration of events and between events in existence, and is based on the rotation of the earth in relation to the sun as God said.
So when did time begin to exist?
Time began to exist when God declared day one had ended.
moses writes:
Genesis 1:5 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were day one.
God called the light period a day this light period was eternal in the past but had come to an end with the dark period God had created.
Therefore God called the first light period and the first dark period day one when the second light period began. When the 2 period of period of darkness ended he called the previous light period and dark period the second day.
Yes I know a lot of people and the Jews have God living in darkness for eternity but it did not happen that way a liight period was first as God is light and in Him is no darkness. Where ever He is there is darkness can not exist.
I think I will stop with this post for now. I think I have touched on the main things you mentioned other that starting on Adam and that is too long of a discussion to add to this or the other post so I will wait a little of that. Now if you have questions about what I have said so far ask away.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 02-19-2024 9:09 AM Phat has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 288 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 54 of 537 (915889)
02-19-2024 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by GDR
02-18-2024 7:19 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Hi GDR,
GDR writes:
Firstly I don't know whether or not God/Jesus created everything that exists. As a matter of interest it would be neat to know, but we can't know. You pick a verse from the Bible and treat that as a statement of literal fact and certain knowledge.
Either He created everything that exists as He said or it is all an accident.
All science is trying to do is prove that God was not necessary to exist.
If they just read Hawkings works they will find out he already claimed to do that. When he came up with his instanton. When he imagined that thing and did his math he come up with a entity that if it began to exist could create a universe just like the one we live in. The only problem with it was and is that there is no place in non existence for it pop into existence.
Just like there is no place for the BB to take place nor anything to bang.
GDR writes:
Can you tell me what difference it actually makes to our faith?
I don't know, what kind of faith are you talking about?
I have faith enough to believe God has preserved enough of His Word that with the help of the Holy Spirit I can find what He wants me to know.
GDR writes:
It matters to you because you prioritize your understanding of Bible
It matters to me as the truth is the only thing that matters period.
I believe science does a pretty good job of figuring out how God started turning energy into matter and forming everything in the universe. They just don't want to believe God is the source of the energy required. That is probably because the devil has blinded their mind and they cannot see.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by GDR, posted 02-18-2024 7:19 PM GDR has replied

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ICANT
Member (Idle past 288 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 55 of 537 (915890)
02-19-2024 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by GDR
02-18-2024 7:02 PM


Re: Does it matter
Hi GDR,
GDR writes:
Firstly the word "Christ" is a title from the Latin as opposed to the Hebrew word "Messiah" which I would assume that you know more about than I would. The way you describe yourself is simply one specific phrase to define your particular way of understanding Christianity.
I want to do everything God's way because His way is the only way I can get to Heaven.
In other words I want to please my Heavenly Father as I did my earthly father.
GDR writes:
Genesis isn't to be read as a science text as it is ancient mythology that still has deep meaning
Where do you Get Genesis is ancient mythology?
Genesis may not be a science book but it tells us about a creation that took place in the beginning which got destroyed and God had to do a remodeling job creating a fish for Jonah and mankind male and female at the same time, which was never placed in any garden or forbidden from eating fruit of a specific tree. In fact they were told they could eat from every tree as well as they were supposed to replenish the earth.
GDR writes:
Why would you read Genesis in the same way that you might understand Leviticus,
Because the same man wrote the book of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus. Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Moses wrote all 5 of those books.
God gave Moses a lot of things on the Mount during the first 40 days he spent on the mount. God had already carved the 10 commandments into the stones. And on the second trip for 40 days, he had to carve them on stones himself. I would think he had more time to listen to God as he carved the 10 commandments because he threw the first ones down when he came down off the mount the first. But God told Moses whatever it was He told to while on the mount to write them down in a book.
The book of Genesis is where he would have wrote those things as the other 4 books are about their journey in the wilderness and all the things that transpired in those 40 years.
GDR writes:
THe early Jews were looking for the most powerful god amongst a plethora of gods. It was only much later that they became monotheistic. Why would you read Genesis in the same way that you might understand Leviticus, Isaiah or the Gospels?
I don't know what you are talking about as the children of Israel had been in Egyptian bondage for 450 years and when they came out after the first born of everything man and animals unless they had the blood applied to the door posts they worshiped one God.
Then when they refused to go into the promised land when God said go they spent 40 years wandering around in the desert with Moses and all the men that were over 20 years of age died. Then under Joshua they went into the promised Land. And yes they were told to wipe out everybody as God wanted to preserve a pure people for Himself and if they did not wipe them out they would begin following their gods which is exactly what happened as they did not obey God.
GDR writes:
However we understand the Christian faith it remains a faith. I put my faith in Jesus ovewr a literal understaning of the Bible.
I have never been one to want to settle for a peace of a loaf when I could have the whole loaf if I worked hard enough for it.
I graduated with the best grades in my 1-12 school and my college classes.
I became an earth mover operator I became the best there was and then when to a d7 dozer and became the best there was and then moved to a motor grader and became the best there was . I then became a trim carpenter and became one of the best there was then a cabinet builder and became one of the best there was. I had a cabinet shop in the Cayman Islands for 15 years and built cabinets for town homes condominiums banks the Governors Scotts house several multimillionaires and even did cabinets for a couple of 55' yacht's.
All the time I was a carpenter and cabinet maker I was pastoring or building churches.
So I don't want to be a mediocre soldier in Gods Army I want to be a 5 star General. During the 1000 year reign of Christ I want to be in charge of the State of Florida.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 02-18-2024 7:02 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member (Idle past 288 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 56 of 537 (915891)
02-19-2024 11:03 PM


Historical Jesus
ICANT writes:
Does Jesus exist what does Historians say?
ICANT writes:
Historians generally agree that Jesus of Nazareth historically existed, rather than being a purely mythical figure. This consensus was established in scholarship during the early 20th century. Here are some key points:
Existence: Scholars concur that a Jewish man named Jesus of Nazareth did indeed live in Palestine during the 1st century CE12. His life and teachings formed the basis for Christianity.
Historical Quests: Over time, scholars have undertaken three separate quests to explore the historical Jesus. These quests have distinct characteristics and research criteria.
Accepted Historical Events:
Baptism: One widely accepted historical event is Jesus’s baptism.
Crucifixion: The other key event is his crucifixion, commonly dated to either 30 or 33 CE.
Scholarly Approach: Scholars differentiate between the “Jesus of history” (the historical figure) and the “Christ of faith” (the religious interpretation). Supernatural elements, such as miracles and resurrection, fall outside the scope of historical methods.
Certainly! Several modern scholars have contributed significantly to our understanding of the historical Jesus. Here are a few notable ones:
Albert Nolan, O.P.: A distinguished Dominican priest, writer, and theologian from South Africa, Father Albert Nolan delved into the life and times of Jesus. His book, “Jesus Before Christianity”, provides a short and accessible reconstruction of Jesus’ world, emphasizing his ministry to the poor and marginalized. Nolan’s work captivated many and shed light on the historical context in which Jesus lived.
Msgr. John P. Meier: Another influential scholar, Msgr. Meier made significant contributions to our understanding of the historical Jesus and his message. His research and writings have enriched the scholarly discourse on Jesus’ life and teachings.
Joachim Jeremias: Since the 1970s, scholars like Joachim Jeremias have traced elements of Christianity back to currents in first-century Judaism. Jeremias, along with others, discarded the nineteenth-century minority views that suggested Jesus was based on previous pagan deities.
E. P. Sanders and Gerd Theissen: These scholars have also contributed to the study of the historical Jesus. Their research has focused on understanding the context of Jesus’ life and the cultural currents of his time.
Does anyone disagree? State reasons.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 57 of 537 (915894)
02-20-2024 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by ICANT
02-19-2024 3:49 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
Since God determines who is in power and who is not and this is a proverb against the king of Babylon it has nothing to do with the devil although mankind decided the devil had to fall and create evil in doing so because they could not believe God created evil as He said he did they have tried to make this verse to refer to the king of Babylon and the devil.
This confuses me a bit. How could man decide that the devil "had to fall" if the Fall of such an angel occurred before Adam and Eve? Otherwise, why was the snake already so cunning before they ate of the forbidden tree?
I *will agree* that Jesus was in the beginning and thus was in actuality the first Adam as He created Lucifer/Satan. Help me out here.
Or did God use Adams disobedience to turn the snake bad?
And why even have a tree in the garden which cant be touched?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2024 3:49 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2024 10:17 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 58 of 537 (915895)
02-20-2024 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by GDR
02-18-2024 7:02 PM


Re: Does it matter
GDR, addressing ICANT writes:
Firstly I don't know whether or not God/Jesus created everything that exists. As a matter of interest it would be neat to know, but we can't know. You pick a verse from the Bible and treat that as a statement of literal fact and certain knowledge.
In my opinion, taking a verse from the Bible will get me closer to the GOD I worship rather than me taking a verse from the Quaran, the Book of Mormon, or even the Washington Post.
Can you tell me what difference it actually makes to our faith? Does it diminish in any way the teachings or the life of Jesus in the Gospels, or how the writers of the Epistles interpreted the man Jesus?
I think I see where you are going here. Our relationship is with a character in a book rather than the writings of the book itself. In my mind, this sort of belief would only work in making me stronger if
1) I really wanted it.
2) Jesus were actually living eternally and I had present moment access to His wisdom and Spirit.
GDR, addressing ICANT writes:
It matters to you because you prioritize your understanding of Bible at the expense of what Jesus said and did in the Gospels.
Maybe that holds true for me also at times. I believe fervently that He is alive eternally. I also am very imperfect. I lie. I have an ego. I want to be right more (at times) than I want His words to be right. A perfect example at this very Forum came from my favorite conversationalist ringo.
He began telling me that I was supposed to give "it all up" and that God would want this for me. I tried to ignore what he saaid, but all along I knew (and know) that he was right.
So much for my intellect!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 02-18-2024 7:02 PM GDR has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 288 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 59 of 537 (915907)
02-20-2024 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
02-20-2024 1:56 AM


Re: By the Numbers
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
n and the devil.
This confuses me a bit. How could man decide that the devil "had to fall"
Sorry for any confusion you may have so I will see if I can clear it up.
I have a friend that believes the KJV Bible is the infallible inspired Word of God. That means he believes as it exists there are no mistakes in it. But he does not believe that God could create Evil. I ask him which was correct was the KJV without error or did God create evil . I said you can't have it both ways so then he started making all kinds of excuses for the Hebrew ra that it should have been translated as potential of evil. because his Bible is infallible. In other words people can decide to believe whatever they want to believe and always find a way to make it be that way. Hope that helps.
Phat writes:
if the Fall of such an angel occurred before Adam and Eve?
How could and angel fall. They are not humans. They were not created in the image of God. They are like a robot, they do what God programed them to do they can noit think and make decisions. The angels in heaven worship God continually. The devil and his angels have never worshiped God. If there was no devil there would be no evil and he was never under grace so what did he fall from? If he fell.
The devil and his angels did not have anything to do until God formed man from the dust of the ground and placed the man in the garden and gave man the opportunity to have a choice between good and evil. God gave the man a choice he could obey God and live forever in paradise or he could eat the fruit and die in the same light period he ate the fruit. God did not give the woman the choice He gave to the man. But when she had eat the fruit the man decided to purposely eat the fruit rather than to be left alone with the animals. He did not have to eat the fruit and if he hadn't, they would still be in the garden, and we would not exist.
I have the idea from the way you talk that you believe the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 and the man created in Genesis 1:27 are one and the same, they are not.
The man in Genesis 2:7 was formed from the dust of the ground before any living thing (plant or animal he was the first life) and the woman in Genesis 2:22 was cloned from a bone (fragment) taken from the man with and interval of duration between the her and the man. In which God formed all the animals and fowl. God brought the animals to the man and he named them. Then God cloned the woman. God had already placed the man in the garden and gave him the command to not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The man and woman in Genesis 1:27 created in the image of God, were created after all other life forms existed. They were never placed in a garden and never forbidden from eating the fruit of any tree but was told they could eat from every tree. They were also told to go and replenish the earth. Did God just create one man and one woman or more it says them.
]quote]Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. That them could have been many, or it could have been just two.
There is one thing for sure the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 and the man created in Genesis 1:27 can not be the same man.
That means there are two different accounts of creation events.
Phat writes:
I *will agree* that Jesus was in the beginning and thus was in actuality the first Adam as He created Lucifer/Satan. Help me out here.
Read what the text says that I quoted from Isaiah 14:4-16 in Message 52
In verse 4 Isaiah is to take up a proverb against the king of Babylon.
At no place does He change the subject of the proverb so when the Catholic Church inserted Lucifer into the text that did not change the subject of the proverb. As you notice the Lucifer/King of Babylon that is cut down is a human man.
quote:
Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Lets dig a little deeper.
quote:
Job 1:6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
When Job lived the devil could wander around on earth and go see God in heaven.
quote:
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
quote:
Revelation 12:7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
The devil and his angels still have access to heaven today and will until this war if fought and the devil looses and is cast out of heaven for good by Michael.
So let no one fool you the devil keeps point his finger at God and saying just lookk at ICANT he just messed up again.
Phat writes:
Or did God use Adams disobedience to turn the snake bad?
The devil entered the snake and talked to the woman through the snake who had no choice in the matter. The word translated was in Genesis 3:1 and in Genesis 1:2 should have been translated came to be. Was does not exist in the definition of היתה. to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
(Qal)
to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
to come about, come to pass
If you can find was in there let me know where.
Phat writes:
And why even have a tree in the garden which cant be touched?
So the man formed from the dust of the ground would have a choice between good and evil. You need to know this man was perfect there was no sin in him or the universe. He made the choice and chose to disobey God and because when you were born you were condemned already.
Then you could have the choice of spending eternity with God or not spending eternity with God in heaven.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 02-20-2024 1:56 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 02-20-2024 11:47 AM ICANT has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 60 of 537 (915917)
02-20-2024 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by ICANT
02-20-2024 10:17 AM


Re: By the Numbers
I never have studied the Bible as much as you have. When I came to EvC in 2004, I had already "been saved" since 1993, but I was a novice at being a Bible scholar. My exposure to Biblical teaching came from believers who were to some degree leaders in the churches I attended. Most of our Bible studies back in those days focused on the New Testament, which I have basically read.
In addition, I believe that since Jesus is the living word, once I accepted Jesus the word went in to me. Thus, when I read the Bible, I pull it out of my spirit from the Spirit which lives in me rather than try and understand it like I would any other book. I am not a critical thinker in the sense that I have never tried to falsify the Bible. jar ruled the roost here at EvC back in those days, and he was quite influential here. Being an Episcopal, he always said that when he went to church he never "checked his brains at the door" and thus never was afraid to question the good book. I always joke to him that he was the Apostle to the Atheists, but I never sensed that he knew God. He believed in Logic, Reason, and Reality. Whenever I would discuss the Bible and scripture, he would challenge me, as would ringo. Many of my own conclusions about scripture are subject to revision, though I wont listen to an atheist or secular humanist who does not know God.(Through Jesus)
Now when it comes to science, evolution, and biology, I defer to many here at EvC who are educated in those fields of study. When it comes to the Bible, however, the only ones I will listen to are people who not only study the Bible from a believers perspective but who are open to the belief that Jesus was and is God incarnate. That leaves out a whole group of otherwise respectable Biblical Scholars and Archeologists. GDR says that where the rubber meets the road involves knowing Jesus over knowing the Bible.
I have no opinion except to say that I believe that Jesus *is* the living word. I wont listen to anyone who does not believe that Jesus is alive or who believes that the Bible is full of errors. My critics may suggest that this belief severely limits me and that, in their words, I am willfully ignorant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2024 10:17 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2024 1:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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