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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 316 of 563 (915596)
02-15-2024 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by ICANT
02-15-2024 1:06 PM


Re: A Brief Word For Theo
ICANT writes:
So it does not make any difference where you are born.
The probability of being born and baptised Christian in the USA is between 65 and 75%.
The probability of being born and baptised Christian in Iran is less than 1%
So it does make any difference where you are born.
And, btw, there is no recorded incident of anyone ever finding Jesus that didn't already know about him. Your Holy Spirit is not equally distributed.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 1:06 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 2:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 317 of 563 (915597)
02-15-2024 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Tangle
02-15-2024 3:25 AM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Hi Charley,
Tangle writes:
Well of course it's not a coincidence. Nor is it a coincidence that the scholars writing about Jesus as a real person are (almost) all believers and usually also theologians.
That is like saying it is not a coincidence that everyone who writes about the BBT are the scientist that believe in the BBT. When they can not produce one shred of evidence that is the way the universe began to exist from non existence.
I assume God exists and created the heavens and the earth.
The scientist assumes that somehow the universe began to exist and since it does exist what he believes happened the way he believes it did.
Now explain to me how your assumption is better than mine?
At least I have a source for the energy and matter to create the universe as well to sustain it and hold it together.
The only answer I get from scientist is we don't know!
If you know the answer to how the universe began to exist when there was an absence of existence please share.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 3:25 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 1:40 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 319 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 1:42 PM ICANT has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 318 of 563 (915598)
02-15-2024 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by ICANT
02-15-2024 1:36 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
ICANT writes:
That is like saying it is not a coincidence that everyone who writes about the BBT are the scientist that believe in the BBT. When they can not produce one shred of evidence that is the way the universe began to exist from non existence.
There are multiple, independent lines of evidence supporting the BBT:
Evidence for the Big Bang | The Schools' Observatory
The scientist assumes that somehow the universe began to exist and since it does exist what he believes happened the way he believes it did.
No assumption is being made. It is a conclusion based on objective evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 1:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 4:48 PM Taq has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 319 of 563 (915599)
02-15-2024 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by ICANT
02-15-2024 1:36 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
ICANT writes:
That is like saying it is not a coincidence that everyone who writes about the BBT are the scientist that believe in the BBT. When they can not produce one shred of evidence that is the way the universe began to exist from non existence.
Bullshit. Historians study the historicity of the bible it is not a requirement of historians to believe in the superstitions of the ancient peoples they study. They just investigate the factual basis of it. Egyptologists do not worship Raa.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 1:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 2:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 320 of 563 (915601)
02-15-2024 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Tangle
02-15-2024 1:35 PM


Re: A Brief Word For Theo
Hi Charley,
Tangle writes:
The probability of being born and baptised Christian in the USA is between 65 and 75%.

The probability of being born and baptised Christian in Iran is less than 1%
You can't be baptized a christian. You have to be born again and live a life like Christ to be a Christian. I doubt very seriously that even 4% of Americans are Christians.
Is that God's fault?
Or is it because of what the parents have taught their children?
The sins of the parents gets handed down to their children.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 1:35 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 2:14 PM ICANT has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 321 of 563 (915602)
02-15-2024 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by ICANT
02-15-2024 2:06 PM


Re: A Brief Word For Theo
Ha, and now it's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Only you know what a Christian is eh? Only 4% of Americans are your type of Christian - this Holy Spirit really is utterly crap at his job isn't he?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 2:06 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 2:56 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 322 of 563 (915606)
02-15-2024 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by Tangle
02-15-2024 1:42 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Hi Charley,
Tangle writes:
Historians study the historicity of the bible it is not a requirement of historians to believe in the superstitions of the ancient peoples they study.
You and no Atheist here believe what historians say about Jesus.
You and the others pick and choose who you will believe according to whether it fits your narrative or not.
You don't believe what a Roman historian said about Pilate crucifying Jesus.
Historians are the people who translated the Annals not theologians.
I notice you could come up for the waste my bulls used to excrete without one word about what you quoted I said.
Do you have an answer for how the universe began to exist in/from non existence?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 1:42 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 3:13 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 325 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 4:14 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 323 of 563 (915610)
02-15-2024 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Tangle
02-15-2024 2:14 PM


Re: A Brief Word For Theo
Hi Charley,
Tangle writes:
Ha, and now it's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Only you know what a Christian is eh? Only 4% of Americans are your type of Christian - this Holy Spirit really is utterly crap at his job isn't he?
I didn't say they didn't think they were christians they do. In fact I have had people tell me they were christians because they were born in America, my mother and father was christians, I am a christian because I was baptized by a church, and the list goes on.
A person is a Christian because they have been born again and are living a life like Jesus did.
I don't even claim to be a Christian as I have not always done what He wanted me to do. I do claim to be a born again child of the King saved by His Grace which I don't deserve.
Now when I read some of the things you and others call and say to religious folks I believe you think they are all a bunch of hypocrites, because they claim to be something they are not. I also believe they are a bunch of hypocrites.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 2:14 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 324 of 563 (915613)
02-15-2024 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by ICANT
02-15-2024 2:27 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
ICANT writes:
You and no Atheist here believe what historians say about Jesus.
Not even close to being true.
I happily accept an awful lot of what historians say about Jesus. But I don't confuse historians with pastors. If you ever bothered to read the historicity of the bible - even from theologians that are doing actual history - you'd be frightened by what they agree on.
At university I shared a flat with a chap whose girlfriend was doing a theology degree, she was shocked by what these Christians professors were teaching their students. And so was I. Most were trainee priests all the lecturers were either priests or Christian theologians. What they taught was historicity - the facts based on the evidence - and it diverted wildly from what they preached from the pulpit. One thing for the masses - the flock - another for the intelligentsia.
Do you have an answer for how the universe began to exist in/from non existence?
Why do you keep asking the same questions, then ignoring the answers? Do you think that we don't notice you trying to change the subject.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 2:27 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 5:00 PM Tangle has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 325 of 563 (915622)
02-15-2024 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by ICANT
02-15-2024 2:27 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
ICANT writes:
You and no Atheist here believe what historians say about Jesus.
Since historians disagree with one another I don't think you can blame us.
Speaking for myself, I see no reason to reject the claim that Jesus was a historical person. Joseph Smith and Muhammad were definitely historical people, yet I don't see orthodox Christians converting to those religions based on those facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 2:27 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 4:55 PM Taq has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 326 of 563 (915630)
02-15-2024 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Taq
02-15-2024 1:40 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Hi Taq,
Taq]No assumption is being made. It is a conclusion based on objective evidence.
Assumptions are necessary.
Where did the Universe come from?
Scientific answer is we don't know.
Where did the energy and matter come from to furnish the universe with the billions of galaxies that have been discovered?
Scientific answer is that little point or pea sized universe that we assume existed a fraction of a second after Time did not exist, T=0.
If those two things are not assumptions what are they?
If they are not assumptions please enlighten me as to their origin.
As far as any evidence you have I think I have equal or better evidence for.
Taq writes:
There are multiple, independent lines of evidence supporting the BBT:
Evidence for the Big Bang | The Schools' Observatory
Lets examine the independent lines of supporting evidence!
1. Redshift of Galaxies.
quote:
The light we observe from galaxies has been stretched by the time it reaches us. It looks redder than it should. This redshift is the result of galaxies moving away from us.
Yes God stretched out the universe and is still doing so which causes the redshift which tells me the universe is expanding.
They didn't mention that we also have some blueshift of several Galaxies that tells me everything did not have its's beginning with that little pea sized universe as it expanded in every direction at once.
So here is a place that the universe says it did not take place as you think it did.
Just one little proof that God is in control not mankind.
2. Microwave Background.
quote:
A long, long time ago, the whole Universe was very hot. As it grew in the size, the heat left a "glow" which fills the entire Universe.
Yes an eternity ago God started arranging everything from some of the energy that was available to Him in the first light period. I don't know how hot pure energy would be, as no one knows. I am sure it would be as hot as that little pea sized universe was said to be, maybe even hotter.
And yes it would produce the same Microwave Background.
3. Mixture of Elements.
Yes they had to begin to exist somewhere in the creation event as did everything else. God had an eternity to create the heavens and earth in.
4. Looking back in time.
You can't look back in time as time did not exist until mankind created the concept of time to be able to measure the duration between events in existence.
So when you look back into existence you have no way of measuring it. Existence just is.
You got anything else?
God Bless.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 1:40 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 5:00 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 327 of 563 (915631)
02-15-2024 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Taq
02-15-2024 4:14 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
Christians converting to those religions based on those facts.
But you see people converting to their beliefs.
I saw Jim Jones, but I did not follow him either.
I talk to Taq and I am not going to follow him either.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 4:14 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 5:03 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 328 of 563 (915632)
02-15-2024 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by ICANT
02-15-2024 4:48 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
ICANT writes:
Assumptions are necessary.
Where did the Universe come from?
Scientific answer is we don't know.p
We don't need to know where the universe came from in order to conclude that the universe began as a dense region of energy that expanded outwards. In the same way, we don't need to know where energy and matter came from in order to understand how clouds form. You might as well claim that germs causing disease is an assumption because we don't know where the energy for the universe came from.
Yes God stretched out the universe and is still doing so which causes the redshift which tells me the universe is expanding.
I suppose God also causes clouds and infections?
They didn't mention that we also have some blueshift of several Galaxies that tells me everything did not have its's beginning with that little pea sized universe as it expanded in every direction at once.
Yes, there are blue shifted galaxies that are part of our local galaxy cluster due to the fact that we are all orbiting around a shared barycenter. The redshift is for galaxies that aren't gravitationally bound to the Milky Way or our galaxy cluster.
Yes an eternity ago God started arranging everything from some of the energy that was available to Him in the first light period. I don't know how hot pure energy would be, as no one knows.
We know exactly what temperature it was and what the energy came from. Once the universe expanded to the point where the energy density dropped to levels that allowed atoms to form from plasma, light was finally able to move through the universe without being absorbed by the plasma. This is the moment the CMB was produced. We know both the temperature and the cause of the CMB, and it is further evidence by the power spectrum of the CMB which is consistent with black body radiation.
Yes they had to begin to exist somewhere in the creation event as did everything else. God had an eternity to create the heavens and earth in.
I don't see you providing any predictions on the relative isotope makeup of that matter. The BBT does make those predictions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 4:48 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2024 12:01 AM Taq has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 329 of 563 (915633)
02-15-2024 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Tangle
02-15-2024 3:13 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Hi Charley,
Tangle writes:
Why do you keep asking the same questions,
Because you never answer them.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 3:13 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 5:18 PM ICANT has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 330 of 563 (915634)
02-15-2024 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by ICANT
02-15-2024 4:55 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
ICANT writes:
I saw Jim Jones, but I did not follow him either.

I talk to Taq and I am not going to follow him either.
Correct. Whether a person actually existed in the past doesn't have much relevance to the claims made about their lives. George Washington existed, but we know the story about the cherry tree was invented for his political campaign.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 4:55 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
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