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Author Topic:   Spiritual Warfare Fight Thread...
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 46 of 101 (90476)
03-05-2004 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Cold Foreign Object
03-04-2004 10:29 PM


quote:
text book atheist rant
...except that I'm not an atheist.
I'm Agnostic.
I don't know if God exists or not.
And even if it was a "textbook rant" the fact that you refuse to address my points is quite telling. I've only responded to YOUR characterization of God, you know.
I mean, why don't you point out how I'm wrong if you think I'm wrong?
Surely, you have a response, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-04-2004 10:29 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-05-2004 3:26 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 47 of 101 (90478)
03-05-2004 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Coragyps
03-04-2004 10:58 PM


quote:
Schraf, that much nickel has yet to be mined.....
LOL!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Coragyps, posted 03-04-2004 10:58 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 48 of 101 (90584)
03-05-2004 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by nator
03-05-2004 8:34 AM


The post that I labeled a "rant" was your response to a reply of mine that simply explained, among other things, specifics about God's love.
It was those specifics that ignited the leaning towards atheism in you.
(please, no insult intended toward any individual atheist)
The climax of your "agnostic" eruption came when you insulted the love of God to be something ridiculously common, and thus unbelievable. A true agnostic would take no offense to anything I said if they truly are agnostic.
If you or anyone were to make fun of the romance/love of God - why would I be offended ? They be rejecting God, not me.
You asked how would I really know if someone was justifying "their way" as "God's way" ?
It takes a spirit, honesty/integrity, and intelligence. These are prerequisites to getting on with God.
The Bible tells us how to revolve around God. Jesus said it plainly "I am the way".
The good news of the gospel is HOW one gets Jesus, which is by faith and not via the works of the law. Faith opens the door, (Jesus also said He was the door) for Him to reveal Himself to you and start the journey.
Everything just said is data - what you do with it is your business.
With all due respect I doubt your agnosticism. The origins of agnosticism are rooted in atheism but that is another subject.
"it is impossible to expose oneself to evidence and not form an opinion"
This is the conclusion of atheist intelligencia that ran Stanford University in the 1950's.
I completely agree with this conclusion, and I go a step further and say it is axiomatic truth.
But you insist agnosticism at 36 years old.
As soon as I can get an Admin. to close my topic "Message of the Bible", I am going to start a topic that evidences the Resurrection of Christ, and I hope the agnostic in you particpates.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by nator, posted 03-05-2004 8:34 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by nator, posted 03-07-2004 10:14 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 101 (90808)
03-06-2004 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Yaro
03-03-2004 5:16 PM


Yaro,
You plead,
Ooo! ooo!
Do me! do me too!
Pleeeeeez
May I have the honor?
"Father, on behalf of Yaro I petition You to remember the hope and joy You felt when she was conceived and born, hope that she might delight You eternally as a beloved daughter, joy in the promise of glory in the wonders of her soul and body. Renew Your desire for her to be born into Your family, and send your Spirit to her now, to refresh in her heart her little-girl desire to be with "her daddy", to walk in the safety and comfort of his and Your guidance, protection, teaching, hope for her glory. Soften gently, with her tears and yours, any wounded places in her heart, from disappointments she might have had from men who fell short of perfect fatherhood in her life, and revive her hope to have these dreams somehow fulfilled. Draw her to Yeshua, in the hope that He will remove every hindrance that blocks that hope, will cause her to be completely clear and unburdened in conscience, will free her from every doubt, fear, and confusion that might slow her coming joyfully to You. Then give her eyes to see and ears to hear You, that she might know You.
Lord, if You should suffer grief and disappointment in answering this prayer, from having Your hope deferred, I pray You let me join you in this heart-sickness. Or, if You and Your heavenly companions should find cause for much rejoicing, because Yaro chooses to be born again into Your family, I offer what remains of my life as might be useful, that the fruit of her choice would remain and not be lost.
Amen."
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Yaro, posted 03-03-2004 5:16 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Yaro, posted 03-06-2004 11:02 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 50 of 101 (90879)
03-06-2004 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-06-2004 12:33 PM


wow, stephen, what can I say?
...
speachless...
really...
thanks... I guess

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-06-2004 12:33 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 51 of 101 (90922)
03-07-2004 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Cold Foreign Object
03-05-2004 3:26 PM


quote:
The post that I labeled a "rant" was your response to a reply of mine that simply explained, among other things, specifics about God's love.
It was those specifics that ignited the leaning towards atheism in you.
What you described as "God's love" inspired no feelings about God.
It inspired confusion about why you, or anyone, would choose to envision God as an emotionally-needy, inconsistent, unfair parent.
If you had described a person in the way you described God, I would be sure to avoid that person like the plague.
quote:
The climax of your "agnostic" eruption came when you insulted the love of God to be something ridiculously common, and thus unbelievable.
Again, I was only responding to your characterization!
YOU are the one who anthropomorphises God to have all of these human-like emotional needs, and petty vengeful tendencies.
quote:
A true agnostic would take no offense to anything I said if they truly are agnostic.
I wasn't offended at all, just rather incredulous.
Also, please forgive me if I do not follow your proscription of what Agnostics would or wouldn't think.
quote:
If you or anyone were to make fun of the romance/love of God - why would I be offended ? They be rejecting God, not me.
Yes, I do reject your very human, needy, abusive characterization of God.
quote:
You asked how would I really know if someone was justifying "their way" as "God's way" ?
It takes a spirit, honesty/integrity, and intelligence. These are prerequisites to getting on with God.
There are honest, intelligent people with great integrity who believe that they were abducted by aliens.
How do you know they are wrong?
Besides, I asked how YOU know you aren't justifying your own way by cnvincing yourself that it's God's way?
How can I tell the difference between someone who is "really" following God's way and someone who is following their own way and only "thinks" they are following God's way?
quote:
Everything just said is data - what you do with it is your business.
Well, if your sermon is "data", then the Gita and the Quran and the Epic of Gilgamesh are equally "data".
quote:
With all due respect I doubt your agnosticism. The origins of agnosticism are rooted in atheism but that is another subject.
It's fine that you doubt my agnosticism.
As an agnostic, I admire and value doubt.
quote:
"it is impossible to expose oneself to evidence and not form an opinion"
This is the conclusion of atheist intelligencia that ran Stanford University in the 1950's.
I completely agree with this conclusion, and I go a step further and say it is axiomatic truth.
But you insist agnosticism at 36 years old.
What kind of "evidence" does your quote refer to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-05-2004 3:26 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-09-2004 10:48 PM nator has replied

  
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3217 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 52 of 101 (90928)
03-07-2004 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dan Carroll
03-03-2004 9:48 AM


VengeanceDemons
Hi Dan, actually I think that is what they used to tell Anya during one of her frequent annoying moments, in other words evey 10 seconds of so.
One comment on the picture (other than it gave me a good laugh), if the devil exists that does add some basis for the existance of a god. COurse, if we are our own devils that would add basis to the arguement that we are our own gods as well. Just a little food for thought on a sunny working morning.

"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
and my family motto
Transfixus sed non mortis
Taz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-03-2004 9:48 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-08-2004 9:22 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has not replied

  
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3217 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 53 of 101 (90929)
03-07-2004 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-03-2004 2:30 AM


Hi Phatboy,
just from curiosity, is there a reason for this thread. Other than giving you people to pray for of course.

"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
and my family motto
Transfixus sed non mortis
Taz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 03-03-2004 2:30 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by NosyNed, posted 03-07-2004 10:43 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 54 of 101 (90931)
03-07-2004 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
03-07-2004 10:38 AM


Good, he's baaack.
Welcome back Taz!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 03-07-2004 10:38 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 03-07-2004 12:42 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3217 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 55 of 101 (90940)
03-07-2004 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by NosyNed
03-07-2004 10:43 AM


Re: Good, he's baaack.
Hi Ned, I wish that I had more time for the debate and to fight the good fight but my new job has me hopping (start up biotech is such a time drain). That said, I am trying to give myself a little time each week to pick one area of interest to look into. As I refuse to jump into a debate without at least some background reseach I am torn between which topic to reply to. I have started looking more into the new areas of DNA and genomic architecture and their relationship to "random" mutations, as well as protein cascades such as the MAP cascades as examples of metabolic architecture, so these areas, and ID, are the ones that I will probably try to focus on most. After I do my &*&_(*&#$%# taxes of course.
Let's see if I can actually start to make a contribution again.

"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
and my family motto
Transfixus sed non mortis
Taz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by NosyNed, posted 03-07-2004 10:43 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 101 (91114)
03-08-2004 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
03-07-2004 10:37 AM


Re: VengeanceDemons
quote:
Hi Dan, actually I think that is what they used to tell Anya during one of her frequent annoying moments, in other words evey 10 seconds of so.
Heh heh. The line's actually from a seventh season episode, where we see Anya before she was a vengeance demon. The full line is:
quote:
I don't talk to people much. I mean, I talk to them, but they don't talk to me, except to say that, "your questions are irksome," and, "perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."

"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 03-07-2004 10:37 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 57 of 101 (91488)
03-09-2004 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by nator
03-07-2004 10:14 AM


Schraf:
I've been thinking about your general reaction to the way I described God's love.
Then it hit me.
I used to react the same way. How ridiculous to contend that God will somehow become a perpetrator of romance. I used to cringe when "Jesus freaks" slobbered that mushy nonsense onto me. Then I suffered a personal catastrophe and God "made me" relate to Him like a theist. A born-again experience ensued. Jesus revealed Himself to me (John 14:21). I suddenly discovered His romance. It was literal and real as billed. This experience/journey matched the claims and depictions found in Scripture.
Those who accuse evangelicals of anthropomorphisizing God need to post their evidence. The record of the written word has God revealing Himself this way, that He created us in His image.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by nator, posted 03-07-2004 10:14 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-10-2004 12:35 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 59 by nator, posted 03-10-2004 8:55 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 60 by hitchy, posted 03-10-2004 9:56 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 101 (91497)
03-10-2004 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Cold Foreign Object
03-09-2004 10:48 PM


Willowtree, I am not trying to critize your personal beliefs, but how does your conversion to christianity in any way validate or confirm the bible? I am glad that your faith gives you comfort and seems to provide a framework for your life. Religion, even if not literally true, can provide a common ground for community, an important aspect of human sociological needs. However, there are people of many faiths that have claimed personal experiences with divinity. If your revelation is typical in almost all faiths, then do all faiths have the same validity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-09-2004 10:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 59 of 101 (91529)
03-10-2004 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Cold Foreign Object
03-09-2004 10:48 PM


quote:
How ridiculous to contend that God will somehow become a perpetrator of romance.
Your characterization of God was in no way "romantic" to me.
Your God seems to be a petty, inconstant and emotionally-needy.
If your characterization had actually been romantic, I would have understood completely. Who wouldn't like to imagine their God as attentive, loyal, thoughtful, and loving?
I guess your idea of what "romantic" is is very different from mine.
quote:
I used to cringe when "Jesus freaks" slobbered that mushy nonsense onto me. Then I suffered a personal catastrophe and God "made me" relate to Him like a theist.
Of course, I would say that, in your time of emotional need, you created God in your own image (only stronger) that you could lean on.
quote:
A born-again experience ensued. Jesus revealed Himself to me (John 14:21). I suddenly discovered His romance. It was literal and real as billed. This experience/journey matched the claims and depictions found in Scripture.
Lots of people go through this experience, and it's most often connected with a personal crisis or a transitional, insecure life stage. Then the recruiters arrive or perhaps the person returns to the religious tradition of their family, or the dominant one in his or her wider culture. I do not begrudge people their emotional comfort wherever they can get it, but you are going further.
You have become so emotionally invested in your religion being "real" that you are attempting to "prove" it through emperical means, which is forever going to be a losing proposition for you.
If you start down that path, you have lost the point of faith.
quote:
Those who accuse evangelicals of anthropomorphisizing God need to post their evidence. The record of the written word has God revealing Himself this way, that He created us in His image.
There was a story on the local news yesterday about a woman who kept showing up at a local car dealership claiming that God told her to go there, and also that God told her that she should have a free car.
Throughout the Bible, God speaks directly to people all the time, and even comes to Earth to hang out with humans. Who is to say that God isn't speaking to this woman, or any of the other people who say that God speaks to them?
The evidence for the anthropomorphizing of God is all throughout the Bible, especially in the OT.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-10-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-09-2004 10:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
hitchy
Member (Idle past 5118 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 60 of 101 (91536)
03-10-2004 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Cold Foreign Object
03-09-2004 10:48 PM


Concept of an anthropomorphic god?
Bottom line...people wrote the bible just like people wrote other religious texts. It makes sense that people would anthropomophize their supreme being. The supreme being can do everything the "mere mortals" cannot. The writers and followers projected their ideas of a perfected self into their creator. They also created a god that would reward and punish certain human behaviors. The concept of god also was used to unite cultures and "compete" with the deities of rival cultures. I fail to see the difference btwn a christian god and our comic manifestations of superheroes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-09-2004 10:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
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