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Author Topic:   Who Owns the Standard Definition of Evolution
Percy
Member
Posts: 22669
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 121 of 698 (915040)
02-09-2024 4:27 PM


Maybe we could just stick to the facts?
--Percy

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(1)
Message 122 of 698 (915041)
02-09-2024 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by K.Rose
02-09-2024 12:25 PM


I have had some thoughtful responses, some a bit impatient, and a great many disdainful. To paraphrase a few: "you don't know what you're talking about",
Sorry to be a downer, but... have you seriously considered the possibility that you really don't know what you're talking about? Because I don't want to insult or demean you, but you do come across as not understanding some pretty basic concepts in evolutionary biology. This is not intended to belittle or ridicule you. I'm not framing this as some sort of personal failing on your part. It's just that biology is a huge field. The basics of evolutionary theory are simple enough, but scratch the surface and it gets complicated very fast. Not everyone is going to be well informed in a field like that, especially if they haven't received any formal education in the subject. Have you ever taken any kind of biology course? If not, how could you possibly be expected to know the subject?
Take me for example; I know bugger all about physics. It's not a subject I understand well enough to hold forth on. That's why I rarely take part in online discussions about physics. I simply don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion or even ask sensible questions really. There's no shame in that. It's just not something I've learned much about. I think it would be somewhat shameful though if I, from my position of relative ignorance, went around making sweeping accusations about the validity of physics or the professionalism of physicists. That would be poor form.
Not that I'm any kind of expert on the subject of biology. I have no formal education there either. But at least I know a little bit, enough to not embarrass myself too frequently. And... I just don't think you do. You just don't seem to understand the subject of evolution, even the basics. Sorry, I know that's not flattering, but personally, I value candour above false flattery.
I recently saw an internet atheist lecturing in the comments of a Youtube video about how the canon of the New Testament was set at the Council of Nicaea, an utterly false talking point literally taken from The Da Vinci Code. It's hard to take someone seriously when they make errors like that. It's like if I were to attack the Bible by complaining that I don't believe the bit where Jesus rides to Mecca on a flying horse. This is what you're doing. You're complaining about strawmen. It's probably not your fault. You've probably been exposed to some pretty shoddy depictions of the ToE. It is a problem though if you're going to continue asking questions that betray your lack of understanding of the subject, especially if you are going to refuse to even contemplate the possibility that your knowledge of evolution is in any way faulty.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by K.Rose, posted 02-09-2024 12:25 PM K.Rose has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Theodoric, posted 02-09-2024 5:08 PM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 123 of 698 (915042)
02-09-2024 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Granny Magda
02-09-2024 3:38 PM


Hi Granny,
Long time no see.
Granny Magda writes:
It is perfectly easy to conceive of a world where there were two origins of life
Science? can't find the beginning to exist of one lifeform, and you are wanting to suggest a second lifeform beginning to exist?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Granny Magda, posted 02-09-2024 3:38 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Granny Magda, posted 02-09-2024 4:35 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 134 by Omnivorous, posted 02-09-2024 6:10 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 157 by Taq, posted 02-09-2024 7:17 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(1)
Message 124 of 698 (915043)
02-09-2024 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ICANT
02-09-2024 4:31 PM


Hi ICANT,
That was a hypothetical, not a suggestion about actual reality. It was only meant to illustrate a point, that whilst evolution is critical to common ancestry, universal common ancestry is not essential to the ToE.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2024 4:31 PM ICANT has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 125 of 698 (915044)
02-09-2024 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Tanypteryx
02-09-2024 3:55 PM


Tanypterix:
Reality overwhelms religious mythology with real data, that's why we call it reality.
Your made up reality is not real though. You don't have a single fact to prove your theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-09-2024 3:55 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by AZPaul3, posted 02-09-2024 5:14 PM sensei has replied
 Message 132 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-09-2024 5:49 PM sensei has replied
 Message 206 by Percy, posted 02-10-2024 7:52 AM sensei has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 126 of 698 (915045)
02-09-2024 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ICANT
02-09-2024 4:17 PM


ICANT writes:
The problem with evolution as I see it is that it is built on a lot of assumptions. Assumptions are not facts as they are only the imaginations of scientist.
It's actually built on a set of observations. Observations are facts.
The biggest problem evolutionist have is how life began to exist from non life.
That is not a problem for evolutionary biologists because the origin of life is not part of the theory of evolution. Weird huh?
There are 2.13 billion critters on earth today and no two of them alike and none in a visible process of changing into another species. Why isn't evolution taking place today if it took place in the past? It just boggles my mind all the assumptions that have to be swallowed to believe what is believed today.
Evolution is happening in every species alive on earth today. It's just not what you think evolution is. That's because you haven't the first clue what evolution is. What you imagine it is, is not what science says it is. And luckily for the world, how science defines science is not affected by what you think it is.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2024 4:17 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 5:49 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 320 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2024 7:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 127 of 698 (915046)
02-09-2024 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Granny Magda
02-09-2024 4:29 PM


He doesn't even know what a scientific theory is. Expecting him to understand biology is beyond the pale.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Granny Magda, posted 02-09-2024 4:29 PM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8610
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 128 of 698 (915047)
02-09-2024 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by sensei
02-09-2024 3:46 PM


Overwhelming reality? How is reality overwhelming to you?
Twisty, twisty in the mind. Not overwhelming for me but for you.
The reality of evolution, the evidence in favor, overwhelms your religious fantasies against. Your views on this subject, along with many others, are demonstrably wrong. Yet, you insist your fantasy is right. You live in your own delusional world. Religious = delusional.
Your talking snake doesn't. Delusion (religion) always fails in the face of universal reality.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 3:46 PM sensei has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8610
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 129 of 698 (915048)
02-09-2024 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by sensei
02-09-2024 5:05 PM


You don't have a single fact to prove your theory.
Wishful thinking on your part. Tons of evidence that you refuse to see. As usual, your religious fantasy cannot stand before the reality.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 5:05 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 5:42 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 130 of 698 (915049)
02-09-2024 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by AZPaul3
02-09-2024 5:14 PM


AZPaul3:
Wishful thinking on your part. Tons of evidence that you refuse to see. As usual, your religious fantasy cannot stand before the reality.
You already lose credibility the moment you bring up religion on a scientific topic. And you do it repeatedly. Not surprised here, because you don't have facts to argue with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by AZPaul3, posted 02-09-2024 5:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by AZPaul3, posted 02-09-2024 6:22 PM sensei has replied
 Message 207 by Percy, posted 02-10-2024 7:59 AM sensei has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 131 of 698 (915050)
02-09-2024 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Tangle
02-09-2024 5:06 PM


Tangle:
Evolution is happening in every species alive on earth today. It's just not what you think evolution is. That's because you haven't the first clue what evolution is. What you imagine it is, is not what science says it is. And luckily for the world, how science defines science is not affected by what you think it is.
Weak response to his concrete example. You are deflecting here. And also reverting to cheap tactics, claiming that those who do not agree with you, don't have any understanding on the matter, which is simply not true. Luckily, I see through your lies, easily.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Tangle, posted 02-09-2024 5:06 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Percy, posted 02-10-2024 8:02 AM sensei has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4554
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 132 of 698 (915051)
02-09-2024 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by sensei
02-09-2024 5:05 PM


sensei in Message 125 writes:
Tanypteryx:
Reality overwhelms religious mythology with real data, that's why we call it reality.
Your made up reality is not real though. You don't have a single fact to prove your theory.
Gosh, don't you think it's silly to keep pushing this lie?
You must have been shown evidence supporting the Theory of Evolution a hundred times since you've been here.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 5:05 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 6:09 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 133 of 698 (915052)
02-09-2024 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Tanypteryx
02-09-2024 5:49 PM


quote:
You must have been shown evidence supporting the Theory of Evolution a hundred times since you've been here.
Then you should be able to easily find one example where your evidence proves common ancestry of all animals (not even asking for proof of common universal common ancestry of animals, plants, fungi, etc, which is the most common theory of origin of species).
Show me one example, or I will take it as you admitting that you are the one that is lying here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-09-2024 5:49 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-09-2024 6:29 PM sensei has replied
 Message 144 by Taq, posted 02-09-2024 6:40 PM sensei has replied
 Message 193 by Theodoric, posted 02-09-2024 10:52 PM sensei has not replied
 Message 209 by Percy, posted 02-10-2024 8:16 AM sensei has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 134 of 698 (915053)
02-09-2024 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ICANT
02-09-2024 4:31 PM


ICANT writes:
Granny Magda writes:
It is perfectly easy to conceive of a world where there were two origins of life
Science? can't find the beginning to exist of one lifeform, and you are wanting to suggest a second lifeform beginning to exist?
Why not, if it happened once? Your Bible posits thousands were magicked into existence.
In near-infinite space over near-infinite time (or fully, both) the universe has produced stars and planetary systems through the same processes everywhere we look. The universe is managing everything else perfectly well on its pwn without a god, so why not life? Why not many times?
My personal, wholly intuitive hunch, is that the universe tends to produce life as surely as it formed the galaxies. Further, I think life tends to evolve toward sentience and intelligence as naturally as apples fall to earth.
Now, that's my deep flash of intuition about things, fueled years ago by star-gazing and wine. It's a pretty thought, and perhaps a profound one.
But unlike you and your myth, I don't believe it.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2024 4:31 PM ICANT has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8610
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 135 of 698 (915054)
02-09-2024 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by sensei
02-09-2024 5:42 PM


You already lose credibility the moment you bring up religion on a scientific topic.
You are a religious nutjob trying to dabble in a science thread. Religion is your motivation for being here. As Granny Magda noted in Message 115 your projection problem is showing again.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 5:42 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 6:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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