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Author Topic:   State Execution in the USA
ICANT
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 55 of 80 (914801)
02-03-2024 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Percy
02-03-2024 8:57 AM


Re: An Eye For An Eye
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
If this is your actual position, rehabilitation and restitution, in other words, if you actually agree with everyone here, then why all the rhetorical hand grenades urging the ultimate punishment?
That has been my position since I received a Remington pump shotgun in 1956 that was a guard gun on the chain gang in the 1920's and 30's. It had 8 notches on the stock for the 8 men it had been used to kill in the late 20's and early 30's when they ran.
I didn't know anything about modular homes or mobile homes then but it seemed to me they could have them working in a confined area where they could run and get shot, and at that time we did not have a homeless problem where I lived.
Then being a farm boy I thought they could have made tractor parts or something
like that. Our tractor would break down and it would take weeks to gets parts to fix it.
But Percy I ask questions because I like to hear other people's reasons for their belief.
I was always taught if you give a man a couple of fish you feed him one meal. But if you teach him to fish he can eat for the rest of his life. Just something my daddy taught me. You can apply that to anything.
One of the biggest problems in our society today is the everybody owes me mentality. You can teach a person a trade but you can't make them work.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Percy, posted 02-03-2024 8:57 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Percy, posted 02-03-2024 1:19 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 56 of 80 (914802)
02-03-2024 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Percy
02-03-2024 9:03 AM


Re: Capital Punishment
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Casting aspersions like "throwing money at the problem" is just political rhetoric, empty criticism taking the place of informed analysis.
Percy do you think the great society of L. B. Johnson has worked?
I don't as it has taught people to be lazy and depend on the government to take of them.
Why work if you don't have too. Those who are working can take care of you also.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Percy, posted 02-03-2024 9:03 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 65 of 80 (914827)
02-05-2024 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Rahvin
02-04-2024 10:24 PM


Re: Capital Punishment
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes:
I was referring to "being a better person."
To me referring to becoming a better person is sanctification. That is you study good things and allow the good things to take over your life pushing the bad things out thus becoming more like Christ was.
Rahvin writes:
I can't support that. Slavery is another evil stain on the world, and making it a criminal sentence (the exception in the 13th Amendment) makes it no less a stain. It's another opportunity for us to be better.
I worked as a slave for 65 years making money that the government took from me to spend taking care of the criminals and their victims. I could have done as they did, by taking money from some poor jerk or an old widow woman and went to jail for it. I could have enjoyed three meals a day, free medical attention, a sex change if I chose too, a little time outside shooting the breeze, maybe playing a little basketball, then going back inside and watching a movie or TV, playing cards, chess, checkers, or reading a book. I could have done that for 5,10, 0r more years and then been released. Now I have spent all that time in prison and done nothing but maybe put on a little muscle. I have no job experience for all that time as I did not work. So how do I make a living? I go back to doing what I know how to do until they catch me again.
So which person would be better off when they get out of prison if they do? One who had been in my prison where he had learned a trade, carpenter, Plummer. electrician, drywall finisher, cabinet maker, or some other trade? Or one who comes out of our prison system today having learned nothing not even work ethics? In other words he/she is no more equipted to exist in the real world than before he/she went to jail.
Every body is a slave to something or somebody.
Alcoholic is a slave to alcohol.
Drug addict a slave to drugs.
A 9 to 5 worker is a slave to his/her boss.
A slave on my Great, Great Grandfathers farm. When the slaves were were set free and he told them they were free to go anywhere they wanted to go. They said go where. He said anywhere you want to go or you can stay here and do they same things you have been doing since you came here. Everyone chose to stay. Each family had their own house, and a plot for a garden. He furnished all the equipment, fertilizer, animals, and land. They furnished the labor and when the harvest was in they received half of the proceeds.
I bet you have never had a deal that was that good. Have you ever worked for a company that furnished the workers a house and gave the workers half of the proceeds?
So, Rahvin explain to me why I had to slave to support my family and also support those criminals who were too lazy to work and wanted other people to support them and their habits. Then they ended up in jail and we had to keep supporting them and their habits.
I don't see where that is fair to my wife and children.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Rahvin, posted 02-04-2024 10:24 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Rahvin, posted 02-05-2024 2:31 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 67 by Omnivorous, posted 02-05-2024 5:09 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 68 by Percy, posted 02-05-2024 5:48 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 73 by Omnivorous, posted 02-06-2024 6:24 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 70 of 80 (914867)
02-06-2024 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Percy
02-05-2024 5:48 PM


Re: Capital Punishment
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
The government takes care of victims? Who knew!
It is called welfare.
Percy writes:
Gee, you make prison sound like a swell time, and you didn't even have to mention conjugal visits!
There was a lot of other things I didn't mention also.
While pastoring a church in Arcadia I had a ministry where I went to the state prison and the county prison for seven years.
Percy writes:
So you want the government to remove criminals from society so that they can no longer prey upon its citizens, but you don't want to pay for it.
That is a correct assessment of my position.
I think they should have to work to pay room and board as well as compensate their victims and help take care of their wives and children.
Do you realize how much money that could save and be used for worthwhile projects.
In the process of doing that they could help eliminate the homeless problem or some other problem.
Why should I pay for their vacation from work? Not that they were ever going to work anyway. Their victims paid for that.
Percy writes:
Was it okay that they used tax money for roads and bridges and schools and so forth, or don't you want to pay for that, either?
I have driven over 2 million miles on those highways and bridges, and they are much better than the dirt roads and pig trails I drover over before they built them.
I went to school for 16 years with no tuition and was transported to and from school to my home.
I still pay taxes on fuel to build roads and bridges. In fact in our last local election we voted to increase our road tax, which I supported.
I also pay land tax that includes a school tax and we also increased the millage on that.
So no Percy I don't have a problem with paying for those things or our work welfare programs.
I just don't like to pay for free loaders who do not work for anything. But those who are not able to work I would give the shirt off my back and have, so to speak.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Percy, posted 02-05-2024 5:48 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 02-06-2024 4:16 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 72 of 80 (914885)
02-06-2024 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Percy
02-06-2024 4:16 PM


Re: Capital Punishment
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
No it's not. It's called, "Something ICANT made up."
I did not make up our welfare system.
Certainly! When a woman’s spouse is incarcerated, there are government programs and resources available to assist her and her children during this challenging time. Here are some avenues for financial support:
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF): This program provides financial aid to families with children who are unable to meet their basic needs. It can help cover expenses such as food, housing, and other essential costs1.
Housing Assistance: The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development offers reduced rents for public housing and apartments. Families in need can explore these options to secure affordable housing1
Child Care Assistance Program: If the incarcerated parent’s absence affects child-care costs, this program can help cover child-care expenses for low-income families1.
Insurance Coverage: Each state has different criteria, but many states have programs that assist low-income families with insurance coverage. It’s essential to check the specific programs available in your state1.
Child Support: Even if the spouse is incarcerated, the woman can file a petition for child support against the child’s parent. This legal process ensures that financial support is provided for the well-being of the children2.
Charities and Community Organizations: Various charities, synagogues, and churches offer additional assistance. They may provide clothing, shelter, food, job training, literacy programs, and transportation for visitation purposes1.
That took about 3 seconds to find.
Percy writes:
I'm in favor of anything that works. Are there any countries in the world where something along these lines is being employed?
We top the list.
United States: Work programs operate in 88% of U.S. prisons, employing approximately 775,000 prisoners. Most inmates are involved in support and maintenance roles, such as delivering mail, washing dishes, and doing laundry1.
Japan: Labor is required of all prisoners in Japan, but they have some flexibility in choosing the type of work they perform1.
Germany: In German prisons, inmates have the “opportunity” to work or undergo vocational training. The output of these factories is sold outside the prison. Working allows prisoners to earn a small salary, which can be spent on “luxuries” like coffee. Completing vocational training and working quietly can positively impact parole board decisions2.
Council of Europe Member States: A survey found that in 25 out of 40 member states, prisoners are required to work under certain circumstances3.
It’s important to note that the approach to prison labor can vary significantly, and some countries emphasize rehabilitation and skill-building through work programs, while others may have more punitive systems.
But none of those as extensive as my proposal of going into the manufacturing business.
If I remember correctly one of the wardens in Texas had his inmates farming and producing all of the food for his prison back in the 70's, an someone complained and a judge ruled he had to stop.
Percy writes:
Don't we already have such a system where *our* elected representatives decide how to spend *our* tax money?
What makes you think they spend my money how I like. Not one has ever ask me how I wanted them to spend my money. Has any ask you?
They make all kinds of promises to get elected and then do whatever they want to
with our money. Like build a bridge to nowhere. Or to do some pet projects for another congressman to get him to vote for their pet projects. You know a trillion here and a trillion there and eventually you have a national debt of 33.1 trillion dollars. That is about $94,000 per citizen.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 02-06-2024 4:16 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Percy, posted 02-06-2024 8:31 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 76 of 80 (914931)
02-07-2024 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Percy
02-06-2024 8:31 PM


Re: Capital Punishment
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
I didn't say you did. I said you made up that the government takes care of the victims of crime.
And they according to their standards, which is never enough.
Store owners are expected to carry insurance to cover any losses.
You did notice I specified specific losses didn't you?
Percy writes:
I asked you if any country in the world is providing something along the lines of what you described and you cite the United States, the very country you just said you didn't like how they did things. This is contradictory.
And I told you there was none operating my kind of system.
I knew they had a work program. The problem with is only trustees get to work for a pittance. Washing clothes and kitchen and janatorial work.
That would not cover what I was talking about. I was talking about making real money like they could outside. How else are you going to get good citizens out of the prison system.
Look this is just one of my crazy thoughts and I think it would be made to work.
Percy writes:
You just cited the U.S. as a top performer. You're being contradictory again.
No, I cited them as the biggest.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Percy, posted 02-06-2024 8:31 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Percy, posted 02-07-2024 12:20 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 78 of 80 (914974)
02-07-2024 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Percy
02-07-2024 12:20 PM


Re: Capital Punishment
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
A search of your posts reveals you never used the word loss in any form in reference to victims of crimes.​
In I made these 2 statements in Message 24
quote:
So why should the murder get to live and his victim has to die?
quote:
Had the murder not executed his victim they would have got to live.
In Message 70 I said:
quote:
Why should I pay for their vacation from work? Not that they were ever going to work anyway. Their victims paid for that.
I made these 2 statements inMessage 46
quote:
That is what the victims have to do as well as the families of the criminal.
quote:
It would benefit them more if the penal system had factories the inmates could work and make money and support the victims.
No place did I say victims of crimes.
I have been talking about Capital Punishment and what I would prefer the punishment for murder should be rather than the punishment for a few murders has been.
In Message 72 I said:
quote:
Certainly! When a woman’s spouse is incarcerated, there are government programs and resources available to assist her and her children during this challenging time.
In Message 72 I also listed 8 different places a family can get help in trying times like the Husband being murdered.
I found all of this .
But I can't find where I said the victims of crimes.
Since we are talking about capital punishment which is death there is only two capital cases murder and treason.
Me:Are there any countries in the world where something along these lines is being employed?
You:No. change to yes. Germany, and Russia. but not to my extent. In Germany the inmates are paid for working and most of that is paid for their upkeep. In Russia some get paid most don't. Both countries have manufacturing and many other type of work.
Me:Then how do you know your proposal would work? Might unworkability be a reason no country is employing it?
As I understand it Russia has signed 96 million US dollars of contracts with business due to the shortage of labor because of their war, and people leaving the country.
in the US inmates get little or no pay.
Due to my experience in the labor force.
To get people to do more you compensate them for what they do.
The problem would be having secure facilities for the manufacturing. As well as securing the tools at night and making sure they all were accounted for daily.
You would want to start with those who would have the most to gain out of the learning a trade. That would be the ones with least time to their release date, and then work from there.
If we can figure out how to go to the moon and we should be able to figure out how to make a self-supporting system. But it would have to be figured out by some business men. Since our government can't figure out how to balance a budget without borrowing trillions of dollars.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Percy, posted 02-07-2024 12:20 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 02-08-2024 9:09 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 80 of 80 (914989)
02-08-2024 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Percy
02-08-2024 9:09 AM


Re: Capital Punishment
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
the criminals and their victims.
that does not say "victims of crimes." It says "criminals and their victims."
Our prisons is where criminals are housed and fed so our government is spending our money to take care of them.
If I remember what the subject is that we are talking about it is capital punishment, is that correct?
If that is what we are discussing and my memory serves me well I was talking about a family where the husband was killed and his wife and 4 children were left husbandless an the children fatherless there was all kinds of assistance she could obtain and a lot of it was by the government that my tax dollars paid for.
I then gave my opinion on what the punishment of that man should be.
Why pass?
Germany even has a minimum wage they have to pay the prisoners.
The US is almost as bad as Russia. They pay some prisoners and others get nothing.
The US also has a much larger prison population.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 02-08-2024 9:09 AM Percy has not replied

  
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