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Author Topic:   The Limits of Religious Belief
Percy
Member
Posts: 22929
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 69 of 80 (914537)
01-21-2024 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ICANT
01-20-2024 5:00 PM


ICANT in Message 66 writes:
My beliefs are based on the assumption that God exists which I also believe is a fact as the evidence I can examine says He does exist. Yet my views are forced out of the schools by your beliefs, by our government.
Religious beliefs cannot be part of public education because of separation of church and state, but I started this thread out of concern that that separation is beginning to crumble. For instance, posting excerpts from the Bible like the 10 commandments in the public schools would be a violation of that separation, but if the electorate votes for it and the Supreme Court approves it, as seems increasingly possible lately, then we've lost that separation.
It's difficult to see how the Supreme Court could approve something like this that eroded that separation because then it would seem impossible to exclude excerpts from other religion's holy books such as the Quran or the Bhagavad Gita and so forth, but I fear the current Supreme Court might find a way to allow one and disallow the others, further eroding the separation.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ICANT, posted 01-20-2024 5:00 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2024 3:51 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22929
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 75 of 80 (914553)
01-22-2024 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by ICANT
01-21-2024 3:51 PM


ICANT in Message 70 writes:
Where do you find in the Constitution the phrase separation of church and state?
No one said it was a quote from the constitution. The phrase "separation of church and state" refers to the two clauses about religion in the First Amendment of the Constitution: the establishment clause and the free exercise clause.
It says the congress can not establish a Church of any kind.
What it actually disallows is the establishment of religion, not the founding of a Church, though it includes that, too. As interpreted by the Supreme Court it means that the state cannot endorse, promote or sponsor any religion. It's why prayer was disallowed in public schools in 1962. It's why the 10 Commandments were ordered removed from the rotunda of the Alabama State Judicial Building, which you mention here:
10 Commandments moved from the schools, and a court's property but still on many buildings in Washington DC. Seems a little hypocritical to me.
To me, too. For a while it seemed like we were gradually removing religious references from public buildings, but I think this effort has stalled.
I wouldn't have a problem with all religions being taught in a classroom as long as the truth of each religion was taught. Even your religion.
I doubt many see problems with a religious studies course.
An example of the actual problem is when 30 students in a classroom recite the Lord's Prayer without regard to whether all the students are Christian or even whether they wish to recite the prayer. Pressure, sometimes social, sometimes bureaucratic, sometimes authoritative, sometimes a combination, to recite a prayer contrary to one's wishes or beliefs is regarded as antithetical to the free exercise clause of the First Amendment.
I'm glad you're including the Unitarians (not to be confused with the Universalists). Unitarianism was dominant in the late 1700s and early 1800s, which is why the church on the town green in many New England towns is Unitarian.
Leprechauns Bless!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2024 3:51 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2024 3:43 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22929
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 76 of 80 (914554)
01-22-2024 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by WookieeB
01-21-2024 10:05 PM


WookieeB in Message 73 writes:
Perhaps it is, as I stated before, (1) most people don’t like murdering human beings, and (2) most people think unborn babies are human beings.
Most? That can't really be true, can it? Don't polls show that a majority favor a right to abortion? According to a Gallup poll from May of last year, 34% believe abortion should be legal "under any circumstances" and 51% "only under certain circumstances." Only 13% thought it should be illegal under all circumstances: Where Do Americans Stand on Abortion?
If I understood you correctly, you said that most people consider abortion to be murder, and that's inconsistent with the poll results.
The Navajo issue is nowhere near as impactful as the abortion debate, and it's extremely more limited in scope.
This isn't important, but you're right that it's far less impactful and wrong that it's limited in scope. In fact, the Navajo request affects all Americans, while only half of Americans could be denied an abortion.
I did find it rather amusing, considering your anti-religious position, that you characterized the separation of church and state as a "sacred principle".
I'm not anti-religious. I'm anti "refusal to honor separation of church and state".
I think we're talking past each other. You claim you're not disputing something I thought you were disputing, and you interpreted what I said as all or nothing when I used the word "correlated" three times.
Morals likely have evolutionary origins because they provided a survival benefit. But morals are plastic.
These statements somewhat get to the core of my problem with this whole discussion. They seem contradictory to me.
But I suspect we hold differences in what "morality" means. Can you please define what you mean by "morals" or "morality"? Not what constitutes them (ie, murder is wrong), but what is it itself.
Morals are what feels right and wrong.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by WookieeB, posted 01-21-2024 10:05 PM WookieeB has not replied

  
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