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Author Topic:   The Limits of Religious Belief
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2228
Joined: 07-15-2003


(1)
Message 9 of 80 (914388)
01-13-2024 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
01-11-2024 12:21 PM


ICANT writes:
Since 75% of the population in America claim to be religious why shouldn't their views count? Do you think that 25 % of the population should control our thoughts?
If 75% object to abortion they should simply refrain from it. The other 25% should also mind their own business.
The abortion issue could be solved if people who don't want to have children would abstain from having sex and if they can't do that do not have unprotected sex.
And, let's not forget, of course they should abstain from being raped.
Every child that is aborted goes to be with God.
Since being with God is the highest goal for evangelicals, I don't see why you have a problem with abortion.
I say abort away and be prepared to stand before God with a murder charge.
10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in a miscarriage. If God is so great, why doesn't he prevent them? Either he can't and is less powerful than presumed, or he won't and is less benevolent than presumed. In the latter case it's God who should stand accused.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2228
Joined: 07-15-2003


(3)
Message 19 of 80 (914425)
01-15-2024 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by WookieeB
01-14-2024 6:44 PM


WookieeB writes:
What other "social animal" besides humans acts based upon a moral (or religions) principle?
There are many examples. There's a video on YouTube that shows a buffalo helping a tortoise lying upside-down. With its horn the buffalo flips the tortoise and then goes about its business. It has nothing to gain from helping the tortoise, so why it does it is anyone's guess, but it seems very much like a moral act on the side of the buffalo.
Another example of morality in non-human animals is the indignant reaction of a monkey that gets treated unfairly. That's another video on YouTube, you can look it up.
The primatologist and ethologist Frans de Waal has studied the phenomenon of moral behaviour in animals. You can take a look at his TED-talk. In it, that same monkey is featured.
So my question for you all is: What is the basis of your supposed religion-less morality?
The previously mentioned examples should suffice, unless you think that these non-human animals are religiously inclined. But other than that, the age-old precept of "Treat others as you would like others to treat you" is probably as good a starting point as any. (By the way, it is noteworthy that this adage does not figure anywhere in the Ten Commandments, which in my opinion makes them rather lame.)

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

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 Message 16 by WookieeB, posted 01-14-2024 6:44 PM WookieeB has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2228
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 23 of 80 (914435)
01-16-2024 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICANT
01-16-2024 11:06 AM


ICANT writes:
The man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 failed to obey one rule that he was given and so by that disobedience sin entered into the universe. Thus everyone who has followed on the earth is condemned to a devils Lake of Fire.
"Thus"? Do you mean that this universal condemnation is a logical consequence of the action of this one disobedient dustman? Such perverse logic defies any attempt at contemplating its merit. It's disgusting.
He loved us enough to come to earth go to the cross and shed His blood so we could receive a full free pardon.
But not enough, apparently, to be reasonable and not hold that first dustman's mistake against the rest of us. It's just more severely confused logic.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ICANT, posted 01-16-2024 11:06 AM ICANT has replied

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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2228
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 42 of 80 (914494)
01-18-2024 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by WookieeB
01-18-2024 2:53 AM


WookieeB writes:
What indication is there in any way that the buffalo has any understanding of right or wrong, good or bad?
Well, the action of the buffalo to flip the tortoise with its horn is not accidental. The buffalo even has to try a few times to succeed. It's clearly a deliberate act. Now, the buffalo does not gain any advantage by flipping the tortoise, which precludes a selfish interest on the part of the buffalo. That makes it not only a deliberate, but also a selfless act. To me, a deliberate selfless act by one creature to remedy another creature's bad situation strongly suggests a sense of good and bad. It's not absolute proof, but it sure is an indication, in the sense that the evidence points to this possible explanation. In any case, I dare you to come up with an alternative explanation based on animal emotions only.
The monkey's action could easily be explained as just an emotional action of wanting something it didnt get.
Initially, the monkey was satisfied with a piece of cucumber as a reward every time. But when it saw that the other monkey was rewarded with a grape whereas its own reward was still a piece of cucumber, it seems its sense of fairness kicked in. The fact that it even threw its reward away with an angry gesture and slapped the board with its hand so as to demand a grape suggests this explanation even more strongly. If it had been a human displaying the exact same behaviour you would not hesitate to call it indignant behaviour.
The differences between species are on a gliding scale, not only as far as morphology is concerned, but also in behavioural aspects.
Animals can show emotion. But they have no concepts of morals.
Just as you tell me that I "have no idea that [...] an emotion was due to some moral principle", I can tell you that you can't possibly know for sure that animals have no concept of morals. And neither can I be absolutely sure that they do have them, but then again: if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, remember? If it acts like a moral agent, it likely is one.
[...] the animals are not religiously inclined, neither are they morally inclined. They are just emotional.
Again, you can't possibly know this for sure.
The "Treat others as you would like others to treat you" precept is actually a religious concept.
It is a universal concept that even a child could come up with. It's found in many cultures all over the world, ancient and modern alike, in some form or other. It certainly isn't the exclusive Jewish prerogative to claim it as their invention, as you make it out to be.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by WookieeB, posted 01-18-2024 2:53 AM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2228
Joined: 07-15-2003


(2)
Message 49 of 80 (914509)
01-19-2024 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ICANT
01-19-2024 3:08 AM


Hi Percy,
ICANT writes:
Percy writes:
There is no indication that anyone has ever gone to heaven, or that it even exists.

Sure it is there, Paul visited the third heaven.
The only source of this is a book that has been written almost two thousand years ago, and that has been copied, adapted, edited and rearranged through the centuries. The original account, as far as it can be discerned, could be the result of Paul having a stroke, having eaten funny mushrooms, describing a bad dream after a copious meal, or just plainly confabulating an unlikely story to get attention. Those are all far more plausible explanations than that it really happened. How anyone in the twenty-first century can be so gullible as to take this Biblical account as literal truth is beyond me.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2024 3:08 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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