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Author Topic:   The Trump Post-Presidency and Insurrection
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 316 of 438 (914063)
12-22-2023 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by AZPaul3
12-22-2023 11:37 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
We do not live in a democracy. We live in a republic where the rule of law dominates not the rule of emotions.
Everyone knows that. But the Democrats sure talk about it a lot when it suits them, like their never ending efforts to get rid of the electoral college. They just don't like the subject of democracy brought up when it doesn't suit them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by AZPaul3, posted 12-22-2023 11:37 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by AZPaul3, posted 12-22-2023 11:57 AM marc9000 has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 317 of 438 (914064)
12-22-2023 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Theodoric
12-22-2023 11:46 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
So you are ok with spreading lies and spouting unsupported bullshit? The justices are not unelected.
No they are appointed, and all of the Colorado ones were appointed by Democrat governors. They do have to have retainment elections. A lot easier than winning an election initially.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2023 11:46 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by AZPaul3, posted 12-22-2023 12:02 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 321 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2023 12:55 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 323 by Percy, posted 12-22-2023 6:02 PM marc9000 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 318 of 438 (914065)
12-22-2023 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by marc9000
12-22-2023 11:49 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
Again you confuse your demented view of democracy with the rule of law. Your specter of the electoral college is just a smokescreen. You want to destroy the rule of law for a Trump dictatorship.
You're a traitor to American society.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 11:49 AM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 8:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 319 of 438 (914066)
12-22-2023 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by marc9000
12-22-2023 11:52 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
No they are appointed, and all of the Colorado ones were appointed by Democrat governors.
Thus the operations of a society of law. You don't like the law? In a nation of law you change it. You don't violently rebel and demand your own way.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 11:52 AM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 7:47 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 320 of 438 (914067)
12-22-2023 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by AZPaul3
12-22-2023 11:37 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
Yes we do live in a democracy. A republic is a type of democracy. It is not direct democracy it is representative democracy.
The U.S. Is Both a Republic and a Democracy

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by AZPaul3, posted 12-22-2023 11:37 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 321 of 438 (914068)
12-22-2023 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by marc9000
12-22-2023 11:52 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
They are elected. You are wrong. Nice shifting of goal posts. None of the US Supreme Court members are elected, so their decisions are illegitimate?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 11:52 AM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 7:54 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 322 of 438 (914069)
12-22-2023 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by marc9000
12-22-2023 10:38 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
marc9000 in Message 310 writes:
Do you believe this action by those 4 unelected judges is a victory for democracy? Is the term "democracy" being re-defined?
As has already been explained, supreme court justices in Colorado are appointed to the bench for a 2-year period, after which they have to face a retainment election, but it sounds like you believe that appointed judges are undemocratic.
The reality is that there are both red and blue states that appoint their supreme court justices. Here's a table of how judges in each state become seated on the supreme court sorted by method. The "tnc" in "Governor appoints tnc" stands for "through nominating commission":
StateNumber of justicesMethod of selection2020 Election
California 7Governor appointsDemocratic
Maine7Governor appoints3/1
Massachusetts7Governor appointsDemocratic
New Hampshire 5Governor appointsDemocratic
New Jersey 7Governor appointsDemocratic
Alaska 5Governor appoints tncRepublican
Arizona 7Governor appoints tncDemocratic
Colorado 7Governor appoints tncDemocratic
Connecticut 7Governor appoints tncDemocratic
Delaware 5Governor appoints tncDemocratic
Florida 7Governor appoints tncRepublican
Hawaii 5Governor appoints tncDemocratic
Indiana 5Governor appoints tncRepublican
Iowa 7Governor appoints tncRepublican
Kansas 7Governor appoints tncRepublican
Maryland 7Governor appoints tncDemocratic
Missouri 7Governor appoints tncRepublican
Nebraska 7Governor appoints tncRepublican
New York7Governor appoints tncDemocratic
Oklahoma 9Governor appoints tncRepublican
Rhode Island 5Governor appoints tncDemocratic
South Dakota 5Governor appoints tncRepublican
Tennessee 5Governor appoints tncRepublican
Utah 5Governor appoints tncRepublican
Vermont 5Governor appoints tncDemocratic
Wyoming 5Governor appoints tncRepublican
South Carolina 5Legislature electsRepublican
Virginia7Legislature electsDemocratic
Arkansas 7Nonpartisan electionRepublican
Georgia 9Nonpartisan electionDemocratic
Idaho 5Nonpartisan electionRepublican
Kentucky 7Nonpartisan electionRepublican
Michigan 8Nonpartisan electionDemocratic
Minnesota 7Nonpartisan electionDemocratic
Mississippi 9Nonpartisan electionRepublican
Montana 7Nonpartisan electionRepublican
Nevada 7Nonpartisan electionDemocratic
North Dakota 5Nonpartisan electionRepublican
Oregon 7Nonpartisan electionDemocratic
Washington 9Nonpartisan electionDemocratic
West Virginia5Nonpartisan electionRepublican
Wisconsin 7Nonpartisan electionDemocratic
Alabama9Partisan electionRepublican
Illinois 7Partisan electionDemocratic
Louisiana 7Partisan electionRepublican
New Mexico 5Partisan electionDemocratic
North Carolina7Partisan electionRepublican
Ohio 7Partisan electionRepublican
Pennsylvania 7Partisan electionDemocratic
Texas 9Partisan electionRepublican
As you can see, the governor appoints the justices in 13 blue states and 12 red states, with blue and red indicating how the state went in the 2020 presidential election, but the states move back and forth. For example, New Hampshire and Arizona voted Republican in 2000.
The justices of the Supreme Court of the United States are also appointed, then approved by the Senate. Were the Heller decision (right to possess firearms is unconnected to service in a militia) and the Dobbs decision (no constitutional right to abortion) undemocratic because the justices were not elected?
You might want to reconsider your criteria for what constitutes a democracy.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 10:38 AM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 8:20 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 323 of 438 (914070)
12-22-2023 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by marc9000
12-22-2023 11:52 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
marc9000 writes:
No they are appointed, and all of the Colorado ones were appointed by Democrat governors.
And all of the Florida supreme court justices were appointed by Republican governors.
They do have to have retainment elections. A lot easier than winning an election initially.
Florida also has retainment elections.
Your claim has no rational basis. Whatever criteria you think up for judging a governmental branch or body undemocratic will be true of both political parties when considered across all the states. Gerrymandering? Both parties do it. Appointing judges of their own party to the courts? Both parties do it. Passing legislation favorable to supporters? Both parties do it. Organizing slates of fake electors? Both parties...oh wait, not that one. Only Republicans do that.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 11:52 AM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 8:26 PM Percy has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 324 of 438 (914071)
12-22-2023 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by AZPaul3
12-22-2023 12:02 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
You don't like the law? In a nation of law you change it. You don't violently rebel and demand your own way.
Like the BLM riots of May and June of 2020? Far more people killed, far more money in damage than January 6th. Pretty well forgotten now, it got about .000001% of the mainstream media news coverage than does January 6th.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by AZPaul3, posted 12-22-2023 12:02 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by AZPaul3, posted 12-22-2023 8:47 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 331 by Percy, posted 12-22-2023 9:08 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 325 of 438 (914072)
12-22-2023 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Theodoric
12-22-2023 12:55 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
Theocoric writes:
The justices are not unelected.
marc9000 writes:
No they are appointed, and all of the Colorado ones were appointed by Democrat governors. They do have to have retainment elections. A lot easier than winning an election initially.
They are elected. You are wrong.
https://www.nbcnews.com/...rimary-ballot-colorado-rcna130583
quote:
Justices on the high court are appointed by the governor, and the current slate of justices were all appointed by Democratic governors in the largely blue state, which Joe Biden won by almost 14 points in 2020.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2023 12:55 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2023 9:18 PM marc9000 has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 326 of 438 (914073)
12-22-2023 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Percy
12-22-2023 5:39 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
marc9000 writes:
Do you believe this action by those 4 unelected judges is a victory for democracy? Is the term "democracy" being re-defined?

As has already been explained, supreme court justices in Colorado are appointed to the bench for a 2-year period, after which they have to face a retainment election...
Who explained it? Theodoric?
but it sounds like you believe that appointed judges are undemocratic.
They are when they try to interfere with a presidential election! Convicting someone of a crime that he hasn't even been charged with, let alone convicted of by any court of law.
The reality is that there are both red and blue states that appoint their supreme court justices. Here's a table of how judges in each state become seated on the supreme court sorted by method. The "tnc" in "Governor appoints tnc" stands for "through nominating commission":
I understand all of that. It just seems quite strange that the recent battle cry from many Democrats is that "Trump wants to destroy democracy!!!!", and then they do this unprecedented court ruling that destroys democracy. It's true that not all Democrats did that, only four activist ones, but they are getting a lot of cheers throughout the Democrat base. Cheers for a thwarting of Democracy.
You might want to reconsider your criteria for what constitutes a democracy.
And Democrats might want to reconsider accusing Trump of wanting to destroy democracy, then TURNING RIGHT AROUND and cheering when one of their own destroys democracy.
The good thing is, two can play this game. Actually more than two, if the Colorado ruling holds up, four states so far are considering removing Biden from the ballot for allowing a hostile invasion at the southern border.
https://abc3340.com/...ry-mcgarr-r-pima-co-donald-trump-2024
quote:
Pennsylvania state Rep. Aaron Bernstine, R-Lawrence, Georgia state Rep. Charlice Byrd, R-Woodstock and Arizona State Rep. Cory McGarr, R-Pima Co., are working together to exclude Biden from their general elections in November.
Also Texas;
Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick floats taking Biden off state ballot after Colorado Trump ruling
quote:
Shortly after the Colorado Supreme Court issued its bombshell ruling that Donald Trump is disqualified from the state’s GOP primary ballot, Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick suggested doing the same to President Joe Biden over immigration.
On Tuesday night, Patrick told Fox News host Laura Ingraham: “Seeing what happened in Colorado tonight, Laura, makes me think — except we believe in democracy in Texas — maybe we should take Joe Biden off the ballot in Texas for allowing 8 million people to cross the border since he’s been president, disrupting our state far more than anything anyone else has done in recent history.”
I really hope the SCOTUS reigns in the arrogant Colorado court, before this all gets out of hand, and it becomes 1860 all over again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Percy, posted 12-22-2023 5:39 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Percy, posted 12-23-2023 8:33 AM marc9000 has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 327 of 438 (914074)
12-22-2023 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Percy
12-22-2023 6:02 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
marc9000 writes:
No they are appointed, and all of the Colorado ones were appointed by Democrat governors.

And all of the Florida supreme court justices were appointed by Republican governors.
But those Florida appointed ones haven't tried to stop Florida voters from voting for the presidential candidate of their choice, have they?
Your claim has no rational basis. Whatever criteria you think up for judging a governmental branch or body undemocratic will be true of both political parties when considered across all the states. Gerrymandering? Both parties do it. Appointing judges of their own party to the courts? Both parties do it. Passing legislation favorable to supporters? Both parties do it. Organizing slates of fake electors? Both parties...oh wait, not that one. Only Republicans do that.
Telling voters they can't vote for the presidential candidate of their choice, both parties.....oh wait, not that one. Only Democrats do that. SO FAR. "We must fight back".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Percy, posted 12-22-2023 6:02 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Percy, posted 12-23-2023 9:04 AM marc9000 has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 328 of 438 (914075)
12-22-2023 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by AZPaul3
12-22-2023 11:57 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
Do you know who your state rep Cory McGarr is? Will you calmly accept it as the rule of law if he stops you from voting for Biden in 2024?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by AZPaul3, posted 12-22-2023 11:57 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by AZPaul3, posted 12-22-2023 8:58 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 329 of 438 (914076)
12-22-2023 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by marc9000
12-22-2023 7:47 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
Like the BLM riots ...
Smoke and mirrors on the wall, this wasn’t part of the topic at all. When your facts are lies and your losing the fight, blow smoke and mirrors to hide from the light.
Show that intellect, Marc. Keep up the rep.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 7:47 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 330 of 438 (914077)
12-22-2023 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by marc9000
12-22-2023 8:31 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
Do you know who your state rep Cory McGarr is?
Yes, I know the budding nazi. You fit right in.
He can't stop Biden. Your ultra-right wing republican cabal does not dictate in this state. We live by rule of law and there is no law, like the 14th Amendment, that would authorize such an action against Biden. Trump is an insurrectionist, we have a court ruling declaring so and a law to disqualify him based upon those crimes.
Rule of law, marc. Your boy's going down.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 8:31 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
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