Letters to a Christian Nation - Free Download

In case some don't know, the author is Sam Harris.--Percy

You could replace "Christianity" with any religion. "If the basic tenets of Islam are true...", "If the basic tenets of Buddhism are true...", "If the basic tenets of Hinduism are true...", "If the basic tenets of Judaism are true...", etc., and that's just the major religions of today. There are many more minor religions, and a couple thousand years ago it was a different panoply of religions, and a couple thousand years before that yet a different one.I'd be surprised if Harris doesn't say something like this at some point. Christians are never able to step outside themselves and ask, "We Christians feel exactly the same about Islam as Islamists feel about Christianity. We can't both be right, yet they are as convinced of their rightness as we are of ours. How can that be?" Fill in any other religion for Islam.Meanwhile those of us watching this ridiculous contest for souls from the sidelines know that they couldn't all be right and that the changing nature of all religions over time where the current generation of believers always think they just happen to be alive when the one, right and true variant has been found means that no other conclusion makes sense but that they are all wrong.That's why my religion is the only one, right and true religion. It's not actually a religion, of course, but religionists think that no religion is still a religion, so I'm just putting this in terms they can understand. My religion has but one tenet: All religions throughout all time have been wrong, including the current crop, but excluding my religion. Naturally, when I say they're wrong I'm only talking about their supernatural claims. Like A Tale of Two Cities, which takes place in the very real cities of London and Paris, almost all its events are fictional.--Percy

I just read the first few pages of Letter to a Christian Nation, and Harris makes precisely this point, much better than I ever could. Your post went through those first few pages and ignored the most important point, that Christians are on the same unsolid ground as all other religions when it comes to proving the basic tenets of their faith.--Percy

I'm going to move on with my day now, but in the past fifteen minutes I just read up through page 9. It feels to me like, even with most of the book remaining, there's already a lot there for you to think about.--Percy

Much of what you say isn't related to anything Sam Harris says in his book, so to help keep the thread on topic I won't respond to those portions. Expressing it another way, Christianity is similar to all other religions in that adherents believe they can prove the basic tenets of their faith. Another way of saying this is that they all believe their faith is the one with the correct set of beliefs. This seems self-evidently true. On what basis do you reject this?--Percy

Let's drill down a little bit: If Christian reasons for accepting Christianity are equally compelling to Muslim reasons for accepting Islam, what is the argument for choosing Christianity? You go on: And Muslim beliefs are very important to them. Allah and Mohammed are very important to them. How does the importance you attach to your beliefs take precedence over the importance they attach to theirs?The answer is the same as why you wear a jacket and tie to weddings and funerals. Maybe you don't, but at least you don't wear shorts, wife beaters and go barefoot. Why not? Why is it a jacket and tie that shows respect and not shorts and T-shirt? If there were some objective reason for what attire was appropriate, wouldn't we be wearing the same thing today as they did thousands of years ago?The reason we wear what we wear is cultural, which changes. There's no timeless right answer.And the reason we believe what we believe spiritually is environmental, which changes. There is no timeless right answer. Generally, however you were raised, that's what you believe. This is true a remarkably high percentage of the time. If you'd been born in Tehran instead of Denver you'd worship Allah and be as convinced of the truth of Islam as you are now of Christianity.I will wear a jacket and tie to the next wedding or funeral I attend, but I will do so in full knowledge that it is cultural and not an immutable requirement. I do it because I like my culture and want to fit in to this culture I like so much, but I also understand that I like this culture only because it is the one in which I was raised. Had I been raised in a different culture I would like that one.I'm making a point that has been made to you dozens of times. There is nothing unique about Christianity. Sure, it's unique in the specifics, but not in the beliefs about the qualities of Christianity itself. Most adherents think their religion the one, right and true religion. You are not in any way unique in that regard. Why do you think you're right and adherents of other religions are wrong? Why do they believe the same about you? How do you determine who's right?The key question is, when everyone thinks their particular set of beliefs are the only correct ones, and when no one has proof of the truth of the basic tenets of their faith, isn't it a certainty that no one is right?--Percy

Harris is the better writer, but I think we've already made all the same arguments over the years, and he's never shown any indication that he comprehends those arguments. Only by offering counter-arguments could he show he understands the original arguments, but he doesn't. Time and again he just says that his beliefs won't change.But we're not trying to get him to change his beliefs. We're just trying to get him to understand why he holds the beliefs that he does. At this point I don't even care whether he accepted those reasons. Just getting him to understand the arguments would be a major accomplishment in itself. In effect he's saying, "I don't care what you say, I'm going to keep believing what I believe." That's the answer that time and again reveals that he doesn't understand what we're saying. He gets the general idea that we're arguing against religious belief, but that's as far as he goes.--Percy

Yes, you should. Why don't you? Why haven't you? Why do keep stepping up to the precipice of explanation and then offer...nothing? Why don't you explain to us how even if you were born and raised in Tehran that you'd be a Bible-believing Christian, and how it is that the culture in which you were raised has nothing to do with the beliefs that you hold. I think we understand your beliefs as well as we need to. What's important is why you hold those beliefs. You don't trust a man offering sound reasoning? Is it everyone's "rationality and reason" that has been "hijacked?" Or just your own.--Percy

Is it possible you're thinking of someone else? I haven't followed his politics, but just the way he writes comes across as liberal and inclusive.--Percy

There's a more balanced treatment over at Sam Harris - Wikipedia.We who have held Christianity responsible for a great deal of death and destruction would object to the characterization of Christianophobe, and I can see how those holding Islam responsible for its own contributions in this regard would object to the characterization of Islamophobe.--Percy

I think there's an intellectual spat taking place. I wouldn't accept either side's characterizations of the other side.--Percy

I thought you were reading Letter to a Christian Nation. He's not revealing any secret information that we've been holding back. We've been saying the same things for years. Harris is just a better writer who is better at crafting information into arguments.--Percy

When it comes to criticism you might want to listen to people who are engaging with the ideas rather than with namecalling and cherry picking. Huh? They're the same ideals for the most part. Liberal ideals of how to treat people have much more in common with many religions than conservative ideals. This sounds like a justification for authoritarian intervention in democracies. Where did you get the idea that equality and freedom are somehow at odds with one another? They're not. They're even included together in the French motto: liberty, equality, fraternity.Have you been listening to conservative podcasts again?--Percy

That makes no sense at all. Where are you getting this garbage?Think about what you just said, that democracies resist authoritarianism but are authoritarian in enforcing morality. How does that make any sense? From which democracies are you drawing your evidence? Certainly not European countries like The Netherlands? And our own democracy includes many examples of state sponsored prostitution, gambling and drugs. This is just a bad friend, not the morality police.There is a political element in the US that believes we need more authoritarianism when it comes to morality. They believe that Christian morality should be integrated into government. They're busy passing anti-abortion laws right now. If you want to find your morality police get a mirror, because it's the religious among us. You're talking morally, I assume. You think that to this point in time our two democracies have been inadequate morality police because they resist their more authoritarian tendencies. You want more authoritarianism? In that case, have I ever got a presidential candidate for you!--Percy