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Author Topic:   Letters to a Christian Nation - Free Download
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9581
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 33 of 51 (913649)
11-26-2023 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Theodoric
11-25-2023 9:50 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
I've no idea about his politics (but it feels unlikely that he's right wing) but he's certainly no ass or islamophobe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2023 9:50 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Theodoric, posted 11-27-2023 9:38 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18651
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 34 of 51 (913650)
11-26-2023 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by nwr
11-24-2023 5:40 PM


Re: An UnChristian Rabbit Trail
This caught my eye this morning:
nwr writes:
Yet you are a libertarian, and libertarianism is a system of theft from society.
So I went to several internet sources to look into your claim. I DID find that libertarians value freedom over equality and this is one of the things I largely agree with.
Stanford Encyclopedia Of Philosophy writes:
Libertarians strongly value individual freedom and see this as justifying strong protections for individual freedom. Thus, libertarians insist that justice poses stringent limits to coercion. While people can be justifiably forced to do certain things (most obviously, to refrain from violating the rights of others) they cannot be coerced to serve the overall good of society, or even their own personal good. As a result, libertarians endorse strong rights to individual liberty and private property; defend civil liberties like equal rights for homosexuals; endorse drug decriminalization, open borders, and oppose most military interventions.
Nowhere in the article did I see any hint of libertarianism being a form of theft from society. (That is unless one believes that society owes equality unto itself at ALL costs.)
nwr writes:
But maybe shoplifting isn't as irrational as you think, for people who might otherwise have no income at all.
I suppose they could argue that shoplifting is in fact their job and livelihood. And you could point out that they are stealing from the wealthy owners of the equity firm that owns my store! But this all sounds too Marxist for me! The sale of that stuff pays my wage. If someone steals from that pot, I potentially get paid less...in the form of hours worked or in the event that the store would have to close. Should people be able to demand equality at the expense of another mans freedom?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by nwr, posted 11-24-2023 5:40 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by nwr, posted 11-26-2023 9:59 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22953
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 35 of 51 (913651)
11-26-2023 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Theodoric
11-25-2023 9:50 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Is it possible you're thinking of someone else? I haven't followed his politics, but just the way he writes comes across as liberal and inclusive.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2023 9:50 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Granny Magda, posted 11-26-2023 10:29 AM Percy has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6484
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 8.7


(1)
Message 36 of 51 (913653)
11-26-2023 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
11-26-2023 7:25 AM


Re: An UnChristian Rabbit Trail
Phat in Message 34 writes:
Nowhere in the article did I see any hint of libertarianism being a form of theft from society.
They don't include that in their definition. But you can see it in how they behave.
Society doesn't come for free. We pay the cost in our taxes. And libertarians are always opposing taxation.
But this all sounds too Marxist for me!
There's nothing Marxist about rationalizing theft.
The sale of that stuff pays my wage.
That's also rationalizing. The owners of your store could pay themselves less, pay you more, and still be quite wealthy.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 11-26-2023 7:25 AM Phat has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(2)
Message 37 of 51 (913654)
11-26-2023 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Percy
11-26-2023 9:07 AM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Hi Percy,
Theo is absolutely not mixing anything up. Sam Harris is a piece of shit.
quote:
The people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists. - Sam Harris
RationalWiki has a good breakdown of Harris' slide into Dark Web Alt Right horseshittery here; Sam Harris - RationalWiki
Letter to a Christian Nation was about the last thing he wrote before the brain worms got him.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Percy, posted 11-26-2023 9:07 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 11-26-2023 2:28 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22953
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


(1)
Message 38 of 51 (913655)
11-26-2023 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Granny Magda
11-26-2023 10:29 AM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Granny Magda in Message 37 writes:
RationalWiki has a good breakdown of Harris' slide into Dark Web Alt Right horseshittery here; Sam Harris - RationalWiki
Letter to a Christian Nation was about the last thing he wrote before the brain worms got him.
There's a more balanced treatment over at Sam Harris - Wikipedia.
We who have held Christianity responsible for a great deal of death and destruction would object to the characterization of Christianophobe, and I can see how those holding Islam responsible for its own contributions in this regard would object to the characterization of Islamophobe.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Granny Magda, posted 11-26-2023 10:29 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Granny Magda, posted 11-27-2023 4:33 AM Percy has replied
 Message 42 by Theodoric, posted 11-27-2023 10:12 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(4)
Message 39 of 51 (913659)
11-27-2023 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Percy
11-26-2023 2:28 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
There's a more balanced treatment over at Sam Harris - Wikipedia.
Indeed and even that makes note of his controversies.
As far as I'm concerned , you can't "both sides" Fascism and that's exactly what Harris specialises in. After a certain amount of palling around with Fascists, platforming Fascists and making public apologia for Fascists and racists it ceases to matter whether the individual concerned is personally a Fascist or a racist or not; they've become part of the Far Right propaganda machine and that makes them part of the problem. And this at a time when Fascism is resurgent.
No matter how slanted the RationalWiki article, no-one forced Harris to have Charles freaking Murray on his podcast. No-one forced him to cosy up to Quillette. No-one forced him to stick up for Tommy Robinson and Sargon of Akkad. That's not normal. Normal people don't have a problem identifying a monster like Stephan Molyneux as a racist. I can't read Harris' mind, I can only judge him on the gross stuff he says and the dubious intellectual company he keeps and I have zero tolerance for this kind of thing.
I have no problem with holding Islam to account. I have no love for Islam any more than I do Christianity, but it should be possible to oppose it without supporting Fascists or fantasising about nuclear first strikes on Muslim nations, or attacking BLM or supporting profiling Muslims at airports or any number of objectionable things that Harris has said or done. He's beyond the pale as far as I'm concerned.
Also Harris believes in UFOs now. Because some unnamed person told him they were real. I think that is a good measure of how seriously Harris should be taken.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 11-26-2023 2:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Percy, posted 11-27-2023 9:44 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


(1)
Message 40 of 51 (913661)
11-27-2023 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tangle
11-26-2023 2:22 AM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Anyone supported by and praised by Bari Weiss is a wing nut.
Opinion | Meet the Renegades of the Intellectual Dark Web - The New York Times
He is an islamophobe. He doesn't think it exists.
quote:
When I recently asked Sam Harris what he thought of the word 'Islamophobia,' he directed me to a tweet that noted the following: “Islamophobia. A word created by fascists, & used by cowards, to manipulate morons.”
What Does 'Islamophobia' Actually Mean? - The Atlantic
He is a person who claims to be a liberal but continually embraces illiberal ideas. He flirts with fascists and fascist ideals. But in the end, I venture to guess that he has no actual principles or even ideas. He has perfected the grift. And yes He is a pretentious ass who thinks he needs to share his petty ideas with the world. He is an intellectual lightweight who in reality uses a lot of words to say nothing but are an attempt to look smart.
Sam Harris - Wikipedia

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 11-26-2023 2:22 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22953
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 41 of 51 (913662)
11-27-2023 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Granny Magda
11-27-2023 4:33 AM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
I think there's an intellectual spat taking place. I wouldn't accept either side's characterizations of the other side.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Granny Magda, posted 11-27-2023 4:33 AM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Theodoric, posted 11-27-2023 10:13 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 42 of 51 (913664)
11-27-2023 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Percy
11-26-2023 2:28 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Reality. He is really quite shallow.
quote:
Sam Harris is a lot like Donald Trump. To many readers, this may sound either obviously false or trivially true — after all, everything is like everything else in at least some way. But what I mean is quite substantive: There are important ways in which the strategy that Harris uses to communicate with his audience is strikingly similar to Trump's. This should worry us, because both speak with unwarranted confidence about topics they don't understand and have sizable audiences that are generally inclined not to question the wisdom and omniscience of their chosen leaders...
Sam Harris began his career, metaphorically speaking, by winning the lottery: He wrote a mediocre diatribe against Islam (without expertise on either Islam or Islamic terrorism) that was published at exactly the right time — three years after the 9/11 attacks and one year after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, now considered to be perhaps the single greatest foreign policy blunder in our country's history. After this, he participated in numerous public debates with religious clowns and published articles in outlets like the Washington Times, one of which, from 2004, made the following incendiary claim: "It is time we admitted that we are not at war with 'terrorism.' We are at war with Islam." He's also published a (very) small handful of scholarly articles in peer-reviewed papers.
https://www.salon.com/...tely-different--yet-very-much-alike
Sammy has also tilted toward the anti-sscience banner and attacks "woke". He has had Charle Murray on his webcast and embraced the Bell Curve crap. He attacks BLM repeatedly without ever mentioning what their goals are.
There is good, well sourced critique on Reddit.
Blocked
He may not be #MAGA but he is a POS.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 11-26-2023 2:28 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 11-27-2023 5:03 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 43 of 51 (913665)
11-27-2023 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Percy
11-27-2023 9:44 AM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
So you are a bothsiderist on fascism?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Percy, posted 11-27-2023 9:44 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18651
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 44 of 51 (913676)
11-27-2023 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Theodoric
11-27-2023 10:12 AM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
I followed your link to Reddit but became lost in the arguments favoring Palestine over Israel. Palestine is easily winning the ideological propaganda war. I can't really argue in defense of Israel at this time. As for Sam Harris, I'm not really impressed after listening to parts of his podcast. He is no wiser than any of us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Theodoric, posted 11-27-2023 10:12 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2023 12:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 11-28-2023 8:00 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


(1)
Message 45 of 51 (913678)
11-28-2023 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
11-27-2023 5:03 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
No and a bit dumber than many. He is a grifter nothing more nothing less.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 11-27-2023 5:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22953
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 46 of 51 (913681)
11-28-2023 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
11-27-2023 5:03 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Phat in Message 44 writes:
As for Sam Harris, I'm not really impressed after listening to parts of his podcast.
I thought you were reading Letter to a Christian Nation.
He is no wiser than any of us.
He's not revealing any secret information that we've been holding back. We've been saying the same things for years. Harris is just a better writer who is better at crafting information into arguments.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 11-27-2023 5:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 11-29-2023 7:56 AM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18651
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 47 of 51 (913686)
11-29-2023 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Percy
11-28-2023 8:00 AM


Peanut Gallery Rabbit Trail
Percy writes:
We've been saying the same things for years.
Ladies and Gentlemen, allow me to introduce the leader of the infamous EvC Peanut Gallery!
The peanut gallery is rarely unanimous. Theodoric thinks Harris to be a grifter. Tangle, on the other hand sees Harris much as Percy does...saying it in better ways than "we" can.
Why not just label Harris a Theophobe? Many Liberals do. They think that their intellectual ideals are superior to traditional religious ideals.
This secular humanist ideology is, in my opinion, a greater threat to global stability than religion. If it comes to fruition, the resulting leaders will only muck up the world by believing that human consensus cannot fail us. And Equality will triumph over Freedom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 11-28-2023 8:00 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Percy, posted 11-29-2023 1:02 PM Phat has replied

  
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