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Author Topic:   Letters to a Christian Nation - Free Download
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9583
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 18 of 51 (913616)
11-23-2023 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
11-22-2023 4:14 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Phat:
I would wager that many of you agree with Sam Harris's view on "all religions".
That's a safe bet.
quote:
I keep my beliefs despite honest criticism from the likes of Harris and others.
Of course you do!
quote:
Perhaps one way that I differ from you is that my belief is very important to me.
Given that atheists do not have beliefs in gods, that's another safe bet.
quote:
Jesus is very important to me. To many of you, He is but a character in a storybook written by humans.
If he even existed at all, he was a character in a storybook. If you want to find out the story of the real Jesus, I suggest you look to historians rather than pastors. Try Bart Ehrman as a starter. (He accepts a historical Jesus.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 11-22-2023 4:14 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22953
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


(1)
Message 19 of 51 (913617)
11-23-2023 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
11-22-2023 4:14 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Let's drill down a little bit:
Phat writes:
Sam Harris writes:
Consider: every devout Muslim has the same reasons for being a Muslim that you have for being a Christian. And yet you do not find their reasons compelling.
...
I keep my beliefs despite honest criticism from the likes of Harris and others.
If Christian reasons for accepting Christianity are equally compelling to Muslim reasons for accepting Islam, what is the argument for choosing Christianity? You go on:
Perhaps one way that I differ from you is that my belief is very important to me. Jesus is very important to me.
And Muslim beliefs are very important to them. Allah and Mohammed are very important to them. How does the importance you attach to your beliefs take precedence over the importance they attach to theirs?
The answer is the same as why you wear a jacket and tie to weddings and funerals. Maybe you don't, but at least you don't wear shorts, wife beaters and go barefoot. Why not? Why is it a jacket and tie that shows respect and not shorts and T-shirt? If there were some objective reason for what attire was appropriate, wouldn't we be wearing the same thing today as they did thousands of years ago?
The reason we wear what we wear is cultural, which changes. There's no timeless right answer.
And the reason we believe what we believe spiritually is environmental, which changes. There is no timeless right answer. Generally, however you were raised, that's what you believe. This is true a remarkably high percentage of the time. If you'd been born in Tehran instead of Denver you'd worship Allah and be as convinced of the truth of Islam as you are now of Christianity.
I will wear a jacket and tie to the next wedding or funeral I attend, but I will do so in full knowledge that it is cultural and not an immutable requirement. I do it because I like my culture and want to fit in to this culture I like so much, but I also understand that I like this culture only because it is the one in which I was raised. Had I been raised in a different culture I would like that one.
I'm making a point that has been made to you dozens of times. There is nothing unique about Christianity. Sure, it's unique in the specifics, but not in the beliefs about the qualities of Christianity itself. Most adherents think their religion the one, right and true religion. You are not in any way unique in that regard. Why do you think you're right and adherents of other religions are wrong? Why do they believe the same about you? How do you determine who's right?
The key question is, when everyone thinks their particular set of beliefs are the only correct ones, and when no one has proof of the truth of the basic tenets of their faith, isn't it a certainty that no one is right?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 11-22-2023 4:14 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22953
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 20 of 51 (913618)
11-23-2023 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by nwr
11-22-2023 6:55 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
nwr writes:
Harris presents a pretty good argument, as those of us not committed to a religion can see. But that's not how Phat will see it.
Harris is the better writer, but I think we've already made all the same arguments over the years, and he's never shown any indication that he comprehends those arguments. Only by offering counter-arguments could he show he understands the original arguments, but he doesn't. Time and again he just says that his beliefs won't change.
But we're not trying to get him to change his beliefs. We're just trying to get him to understand why he holds the beliefs that he does. At this point I don't even care whether he accepted those reasons. Just getting him to understand the arguments would be a major accomplishment in itself. In effect he's saying, "I don't care what you say, I'm going to keep believing what I believe." That's the answer that time and again reveals that he doesn't understand what we're saying. He gets the general idea that we're arguing against religious belief, but that's as far as he goes.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by nwr, posted 11-22-2023 6:55 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by nwr, posted 11-23-2023 9:34 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6484
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 9.1


(1)
Message 21 of 51 (913619)
11-23-2023 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Percy
11-23-2023 8:54 AM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Percy in Message 20 writes:
We're just trying to get him to understand why he holds the beliefs that he does.
And Phat is not the least bit interested in having such an understanding.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 11-23-2023 8:54 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 11-23-2023 11:06 PM nwr has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18651
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 22 of 51 (913622)
11-23-2023 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by nwr
11-23-2023 9:34 AM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
I should be telling you guys why I hold the beliefs that I do. You are not capable of understanding my beliefs as well as I do.
Parcy writes:
ut we're not trying to get him to change his beliefs. We're just trying to get him to understand why he holds the beliefs that he does. At this point I don't even care whether he accepted those reasons. Just getting him to understand the arguments would be a major accomplishment in itself. In effect he's saying, "I don't care what you say, I'm going to keep believing what I believe." That's the answer that time and again reveals that he doesn't understand what we're saying. He gets the general idea that we're arguing against religious belief, but that's as far as he goes.
Quite frankly, I find it hard to trust advice from a man such as Sam Harris who is not a believer. He simply does not understand God. One does not understand God through secular psychology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by nwr, posted 11-23-2023 9:34 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by nwr, posted 11-23-2023 11:41 PM Phat has replied
 Message 25 by Percy, posted 11-24-2023 7:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 32 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2023 9:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6484
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 9.1


Message 23 of 51 (913623)
11-23-2023 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
11-23-2023 11:06 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Phat in Message 22 writes:
Quite frankly, I find it hard to trust advice from a man such as Sam Harris who is not a believer.
Nobody expects you to trust Sam Harris, or his advice. You are instead being asked to try to understand his arguments. You don't have to trust him to decide whether his reasoning is sound.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 11-23-2023 11:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 11-24-2023 7:09 AM nwr has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18651
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 24 of 51 (913625)
11-24-2023 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by nwr
11-23-2023 11:41 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
nwr writes:
Nobody expects you to trust Sam Harris, or his advice. You are instead being asked to try to understand his arguments. You don't have to trust him to decide whether his reasoning is sound.
His reasoning is sound. Perhaps it is my reasoning and rationale is unsound, for I believe that we are all in a spiritual war and that rationality and reason itself have been hijacked. People are increasingly irrational and unreasonable.
My only solution is to turn off the media, engage in perhaps a half day or one day water fast, and allow my own rationality and reason to return to me.
Does anyone here realize how much observing daily shoplifting affects me?
In The News
When I see stuff like that, I am afraid that the world is turning more selfish and evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by nwr, posted 11-23-2023 11:41 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by nwr, posted 11-24-2023 9:21 AM Phat has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22953
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 25 of 51 (913626)
11-24-2023 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
11-23-2023 11:06 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Phat in Message 22 writes:
I should be telling you guys why I hold the beliefs that I do.
Yes, you should. Why don't you? Why haven't you? Why do keep stepping up to the precipice of explanation and then offer...nothing? Why don't you explain to us how even if you were born and raised in Tehran that you'd be a Bible-believing Christian, and how it is that the culture in which you were raised has nothing to do with the beliefs that you hold.
You are not capable of understanding my beliefs as well as I do.
I think we understand your beliefs as well as we need to. What's important is why you hold those beliefs.
Phat in Message 22 writes:
Quite frankly, I find it hard to trust advice from a man such as Sam Harris who is not a believer. He simply does not understand God. One does not understand God through secular psychology.
Phat in Message 24 writes:
His reasoning is sound.
You don't trust a man offering sound reasoning?
Perhaps it is my reasoning and rationale that is unsound, for I believe that we are all in a spiritual war and that rationality and reason itself have been hijacked.
Is it everyone's "rationality and reason" that has been "hijacked?" Or just your own.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 11-23-2023 11:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6484
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 9.1


Message 26 of 51 (913629)
11-24-2023 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
11-24-2023 7:09 AM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Phat in Message 24 writes:
Does anyone here realize how much observing daily shoplifting affects me?
Yes, we realize that because of the way that you keep bringing the issue up./
It is really quite simple. Your employer can reduce the amount of shoplifting by hiring more staff to watch for it.
You employer won't do that, because the cost of the extra staff would be greater than the loss from shoplifting.
You say that you are a libertarian, so you believe that your employer should be free to make that decision.
Why are you whining to liberals instead of recognizing that the fault is with your own libertarianism?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 11-24-2023 7:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 11-24-2023 3:45 PM nwr has replied
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 11-24-2023 3:59 PM nwr has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18651
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 27 of 51 (913635)
11-24-2023 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by nwr
11-24-2023 9:21 AM


An UnChristian Rabbit Trail
I can't believe that you liberals are not as outraged as I am at the entitlement mentality of drug-addicted thieves who even laugh in our faces as they steal before our very eyes. All you tell me is that I am not behaving as Jesus would towards them. Believe me it's hard.
I was taught never to steal. I was taught to respect the status quo rather than trying to overthrow it!
I feel an urge to knock them over the head with a stick and have them arrested so that they will understand the limits of their entitlement. (that's my flesh talking. I would never do such a thing. I'm just telling you what emotions boil up within me)
I can't understand why you people empathize with them and not with the workers who can't stop the stealing. You look at it as a mere economic entry on the company books and none of our business. Don't you understand that people are behaving irrationally? ALL OVER THE WORLD! I feel as if they are indirectly stealing from ME!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by nwr, posted 11-24-2023 9:21 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by nwr, posted 11-24-2023 5:40 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18651
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 28 of 51 (913636)
11-24-2023 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by nwr
11-24-2023 9:21 AM


An UnChristian Rabbit Trail
It is really quite simple. Your employer can reduce the amount of shoplifting by hiring more staff to watch for it.

You employer won't do that, because the cost of the extra staff would be greater than the loss from shoplifting.
Its not that the cost of the staff would be greater than the losses. It is the potential tangle of lawsuits from people who want to defund the police, get something from the 'rich and powerful" rather than work like poor people did in the 1930s, and essentially become equal without putting in the hard work.
Yes, I know. Jesus would help them and I often do also. For everyone I help, ten more steal from my store. (Oh that's right. It isn't my store! I almost forgot! )
And if I am smart enough to realize it is not my store, why do the thieves think it is their store and their stuff???!!! Dont any one of you see the societal breakdown as the poor and marginalized pressure the business owners and global capitalists? What do you wanna be? Marxists? [/rant]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by nwr, posted 11-24-2023 9:21 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 11-24-2023 4:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 31 by nwr, posted 11-24-2023 5:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9583
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 29 of 51 (913637)
11-24-2023 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
11-24-2023 3:59 PM


Re: An UnChristian Rabbit Trail
Could be you're in the wrong job. Have you thought about being a prison warden?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 11-24-2023 3:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6484
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 9.1


(1)
Message 30 of 51 (913638)
11-24-2023 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
11-24-2023 3:45 PM


Re: An UnChristian Rabbit Trail
Phat in Message 27 writes:
I can't believe that you liberals are not as outraged as I am at the entitlement mentality of drug-addicted thieves who even laugh in our faces as they steal before our very eyes.
Outrage doesn't achieve anything.
What about the entitlement mentality of billionaires who are paid far more than their work is worth?
I was taught never to steal.
Yet you are a libertarian, and libertarianism is a system of theft from society.
I can't understand why you people empathize with them and not with the workers who can't stop the stealing.
I don't empathize with shoplifters. But there isn't anything that I can do about it.
Don't you understand that people are behaving irrationally?
There are people behaving irrationally all around us. But maybe shoplifting isn't as irrational as you think, for people who might otherwise have no income at all.
I feel as if they are indirectly stealing from ME!
Your employer could reduce the shoplifting by hiring more people to watch for it. Maybe your employer is indirectly stealing from you by not acting to reduce the shoplifting.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 11-24-2023 3:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 11-26-2023 7:25 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6484
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 9.1


Message 31 of 51 (913639)
11-24-2023 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
11-24-2023 3:59 PM


Re: An UnChristian Rabbit Trail
Phat in Message 28 writes:
Its not that the cost of the staff would be greater than the losses. It is the potential tangle of lawsuits from people who want to defund the police, get something from the 'rich and powerful" rather than work like poor people did in the 1930s, and essentially become equal without putting in the hard work.
This is a flimsy excuse that is avoid doing anything.
If there were more employees present in the store, there would be less opportunity for shoplifting. That would not lead to any lawsuits. And there would be more jobs available, and fewer poor unemployed people.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 11-24-2023 3:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 32 of 51 (913648)
11-25-2023 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
11-23-2023 11:06 PM


Re: Sam Harris: Letters to a Christian Nation
Sam Harris is a rightwing Islamophobic ass. I don't take advice from him. He has some good points. But he is just one person with ideas.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 11-23-2023 11:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 11-26-2023 2:22 AM Theodoric has replied
 Message 35 by Percy, posted 11-26-2023 9:07 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
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