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Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Tangle
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Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 16 of 378 (913122)
10-11-2023 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
10-11-2023 2:59 PM


Re: It All Started With the Nakba
=Phat writes:
What makes you an optimist?
You think I'm an optimist?
Believing the world will not end tomorrow is not being optimistic.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 10-11-2023 2:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8610
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 17 of 378 (913123)
10-11-2023 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
10-11-2023 2:39 PM


Re: It All Started With the Nakba
'm glad that you at least admitted that humans---not religion was the problem.
What is the difference? None. Remember who your priests are.
you seem to think that booting religion and belief in God out of our heads will absolve that conflict
Where the fuq you keep putting bullshit words in my mouth, son!
Without the inflamed passion of majikal thinking things could certainly go a long way towards that end but to think religion alone is the cause of human evil is almost right but not quite.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 10-11-2023 2:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 10-11-2023 9:00 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18418
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 18 of 378 (913124)
10-11-2023 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by AZPaul3
10-11-2023 5:39 PM


Re: It All Started With the Nakba
Hypothetically, what would you do if the majik was real? How would you respond if "the Priest" was beyond those stars that made you think?
Would you then be angry at such a "Priest" for allowing evil?
Or would you simply go about your business, convinced that you had to be delusional and that there was no logical way the hypothesis could be real?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 5:39 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by dwise1, posted 10-11-2023 11:41 PM Phat has replied
 Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 10-12-2023 12:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5982
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 19 of 378 (913125)
10-11-2023 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
10-11-2023 9:00 PM


Re: It All Started With the Nakba
A consultant on the news made an interesting point. Hamas' attacks could have been to undermine negotiations for cooperation between Israel and Arab countries (I recall mention of Saudi Arabia) by forcing Israel into retaliatory actions that could turn into a religious matter. He pointed out that religious matters leave no room for compromise.
So the problem with religion is not any inherent evil, but rather that religion can be so readily weaponized for evil and has been (and still is) weaponized far too often. We could construct analogies involving dynamite, C4, or even nukes that can be put to constructive use if handled properly, but are far too easy to be used for evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 10-11-2023 9:00 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 10-13-2023 12:36 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8610
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 20 of 378 (913126)
10-12-2023 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
10-11-2023 9:00 PM


Re: It All Started With the Nakba
Hypothetically, what would you do if ...
What if ... What if ...
What if I were the Emperor of the Earth, Emperor AzPaul the Oneth. Would I burn down all the churches, temples, synagogues, mosques, cathedrals, tabernacles, sanctums, basilicas and like that?
Since neither my nor your scene is going to come to fruition there is no utility in fantasising either.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 10-11-2023 9:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18418
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 21 of 378 (913132)
10-13-2023 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by dwise1
10-11-2023 11:41 PM


Re: It All Started With the Nakba
Israel,stunned by an attack that their elite intelligence failed to see coming, is bound and determined to eliminate Hamas as a legitimate government and leave no room for negotiation.
dwise1 writes:
Hamas' attacks could have been to undermine negotiations for cooperation between Israel and Arab countries (I recall mention of Saudi Arabia) by forcing Israel into retaliatory actions that could turn into a religious matter. He pointed out that religious matters leave no room for compromise.
In this case, religion need not be invoked in order to justify the Israeli response. Hamas started this particular battle. It was they who were yelling Allahu Akbar (God is Great) as they prepared to slaughter as many people as they could. The Israelis interviewed are angry to be sure but the explanation is that Israel is a country of basic principles whereas Hamas showed themselves to be little more than animals. Critics might point out, however, that the attack was too sophisticated for animals to carry out and that the elite Mossad was fooled.
Neither side is rational, but Israel currently has the moral high ground. (Certainly, the UN does not!)
Israel wants 1.1 million Gazans to move in next 24 hours, says UN
BBC:
Summary
  • The UN says it has been told by Israel that everyone in north Gaza should relocate to the south in the next 24 hours
  • The area includes densely populated Gaza City and will affect about 1.1 million people - around half of the Gaza Strip's population
  • The UN says it is "impossible for such a movement to take place without devastating humanitarian consequences" and has called on Israel to rescind evacuation orders
  • The warning comes as Israel is expected to launch a ground offensive into Gaza to root out militant group Hamas
  • Hamas kidnapped at least 150 people and took them into Gaza during deadly attacks on Israel at the weekend that killed 1,300 people
  • More than 1,400 people have been killed in Gaza since Israel launched retaliatory air strikes, Palestinian health officials say
  • The bombardment comes amid a total blockade. Israel says it won't lift the restrictions unless Hamas frees all hostages
  • Aid agencies say Gaza is facing a "dire" situation with food and water quickly running out and 50,000 pregnant women unable to access essential services
  • The UN is seemingly NOT Pro Israel and some suggest that the global consensus leans more the other way.
    Apart from the charismaniacs who are strongly pro-Israel (and pro-Trump) the US likely will allow the Israeli response to continue up to a point. When Israel first became a nation, and still currently in the Hamas charter is the edict to eliminate Israel totally. In contrast, Israel is giving the Palestinians a way out. Ditch Hamas and let them pay for their crime.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by dwise1, posted 10-11-2023 11:41 PM dwise1 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 23 by Percy, posted 10-13-2023 9:09 AM Phat has replied

      
    Dredge
    Member
    Posts: 2852
    From: Australia
    Joined: 09-06-2016


    (1)
    Message 22 of 378 (913133)
    10-13-2023 12:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
    10-08-2023 3:45 PM


    Re: Christian Apologetics and Israel
    Phat writes:
    In the netherworld of Christian Apologetics, a war between Russia and Israel has been talked about for many years.

    You are right in that Russia is behind this. It has been prophesied and is now happening.
    I think you mean the netherworld of evangelical so-called Christianity. If that fake brand of Christianity gets any prophesy right it will only be by accident.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Phat, posted 10-08-2023 3:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22669
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 3.5


    (5)
    Message 23 of 378 (913136)
    10-13-2023 9:09 AM
    Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
    10-13-2023 12:36 AM


    Re: It All Started With the Nakba
    Phat writes:
    Israel,stunned by an attack that their elite intelligence failed to see coming, is bound and determined to eliminate Hamas as a legitimate government and leave no room for negotiation.
    Hamas, as the details of their recent incursions into Israel made abundantly clear, is a terrorist organization that is also the dominant political force in the Palestinian territories.
    In a way, Hamas, as well as Fatah and Hezbollah, are the creation of Israel. They only exist in their current form as mostly military organizations opposed to Israel's existence because Israel inflicts unending suffering and hardship on Palestinians, which only perpetuates an unending cycle of violence. Just as the Serbs and Croatians fight battles over wrongs from centuries ago, the Israelis and the Palestinians are marching down a similar path. Who would find it surprising if in 2452 when Israel punishes Gaza yet again that they cite as one of their reasons the Hamas incursion of several centuries before in 2023?
    Neither side is rational, but Israel currently has the moral high ground.
    Israel's moral ground couldn't be lower.
    The UN is seemingly NOT Pro Israel and some suggest that the global consensus leans more the other way.
    I don't know what the consensus at the UN is, but Palestinians in Israel are treated in a manner not all that dissimilar from black Americans living under Jim Crow laws and southern prejudice. I'm sure we all have wonderfully warm feelings for the Israelis who cannot even treat Palestinians as if they were human.
    It is wrong that the most influential Palestinian organizations want Israel to cease to exist, but Israel is the strongest power in the Middle East because of the luck of history, not because of any moral high ground. If the fall of the Ottoman Empire hadn't led to Britain ruling the Middle East in the years before WWII, and if Britain's history didn't make it far more familiar with Jews than with Arabs and Palestinians, Jews would never have been able to carve out the Israeli homeland. Might does not make right, as Israel's many moral wrongs can attest.
    If any single individual is responsible for the Hamas attack on Israel it is Benjamin Netanyahu. His hard line stance on Palestinians made their situation intolerable. The answer is not ever greater security and ever increasing military power. The answer is to make peace with their neighbors, and that work begins at home by treating Palestinians as human beings.
    Israel is not our ally because we admire their morality and humanity. They are our ally because they occupy a strategic location in the Middle East. A less moral and humane ally we could not have.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 21 by Phat, posted 10-13-2023 12:36 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 24 by Phat, posted 10-13-2023 11:09 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
     Message 29 by Phat, posted 10-14-2023 7:39 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
     Message 30 by marc9000, posted 10-14-2023 10:47 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18418
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    (1)
    Message 24 of 378 (913138)
    10-13-2023 11:09 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
    10-13-2023 9:09 AM


    Re: It All Started With the Nakba
    Percy writes:
    I don't know what the consensus at the UN is, but Palestinians in Israel are treated in a manner not all that dissimilar from black Americans living under Jim Crow laws and southern prejudice. I'm sure we all have wonderfully warm feelings for the Israelis who cannot even treat Palestinians as if they were human.
    I think it's more similar to the way the American Indians were treated. Imagine if the UN told the U.S. that they were giving the Indians New Hampshire and that everyone had to move to make way for them. Would anyone in New Hampshire object?

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     Message 23 by Percy, posted 10-13-2023 9:09 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

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     Message 31 by Theodoric, posted 10-14-2023 11:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 8610
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 25 of 378 (913143)
    10-13-2023 3:02 PM


    Has anyone noticed how the Ukraine war has dropped from the media? In the West, with the media goes the attention. With the attention goes the interest and with the interest goes the money. How fortunate for Putin's failing efforts. The master strategist may not have much of an army but he has big fuckin balls. Also waiting for the flood of Exodus showings about to come up.

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

    Replies to this message:
     Message 26 by Phat, posted 10-13-2023 3:07 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18418
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 26 of 378 (913144)
    10-13-2023 3:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
    10-13-2023 3:02 PM


    Follow The Money
    Yes. I have no doubt that Putin is somehow involved. Perhaps through his ally Iran.
    It has been established that Biden's 6.5 billion dollar repayment to Iran did NOT get spent on arming Hamas. That leaves Putin and his bankroll. Or Iran. Or both.
    We humans are our own worst enemy at times. Hopefully, Israel won't enrage the rest of the Islamic world by overreacting to what is an admittedly gruesome attack.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2023 3:02 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by DrJones*, posted 10-13-2023 8:18 PM Phat has replied

      
    DrJones*
    Member
    Posts: 2296
    From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Joined: 08-19-2004
    Member Rating: 3.7


    (3)
    Message 27 of 378 (913146)
    10-13-2023 8:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
    10-13-2023 3:07 PM


    Re: Follow The Money
    It has been established that Biden's 6.5 billion dollar repayment to Iran did NOT get spent on arming Hamas.
    fuck you're stupid. It was Iran's money that they earned from selling oil to South Korea. It has been sitting in a monitored bank account in Qatar. It was not a "repayment by Biden"

    It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
    soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
    Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
    Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
    All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
    And so there was only one thing I could do
    Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
    Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
    Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
    If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
    *not an actual doctor

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 26 by Phat, posted 10-13-2023 3:07 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 28 by Phat, posted 10-14-2023 7:24 AM DrJones* has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18418
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    (1)
    Message 28 of 378 (913149)
    10-14-2023 7:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 27 by DrJones*
    10-13-2023 8:18 PM


    Re: Follow The Money
    It was an allowed release of funds that the West controlled through sanctions. It was a concession. S. Korea is our ally...not Irans. Where did you earn your doctorate? Woke University??
    Even Harvard is so liberal that it is on Palestines side even after this atrocious attack.
    So is BLM.
    As Percy said, neither side is moral at this point.
    BBC:
    Israel's leaders have declared that Hamas will be wiped off the face of the Earth and Gaza will never go back to what it was.
    "Every Hamas member is a dead man," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said after fighters from the militant group killed 1,300 people in a brutal attack on Israel.
    This hardline approach is likely NOT ordained, but Israel does not negotiate with terrorists.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by DrJones*, posted 10-13-2023 8:18 PM DrJones* has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 33 by DrJones*, posted 10-14-2023 12:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 34 by Theodoric, posted 10-14-2023 1:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18418
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 29 of 378 (913150)
    10-14-2023 7:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
    10-13-2023 9:09 AM


    Respect Goes Both Ways
    Percy writes:
    In a way, Hamas, as well as Fatah and Hezbollah, are the creation of Israel. They only exist in their current form as mostly military organizations opposed to Israel's existence because Israel inflicts unending suffering and hardship on Palestinians, which only perpetuates an unending cycle of violence.
    From the day Israel was (re)created, opponents sought to eliminate them. After this most recent attack, I would think that "unending suffering and hardship" are inflicted by both sides. The only difference between Israeli citizens and Palestinian citizens is the level of prosperity.
    And just as in America with "the blacks" reparations are NOT the solution.
    To be fair, Israel should allow the Palestinians to earn their way as do their own Jewish population, but handouts are never the answer. Israel won't ever forget the 4 wars between 1948 and 1973.
    Israel should treat the Palestinians with decency and dare I say love (as their God commands them) but it takes time to regain trust. This is true of both sides. And these skirmishes only keep setting that progress back.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by Percy, posted 10-13-2023 9:09 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

      
    marc9000
    Member
    Posts: 1522
    From: Ky U.S.
    Joined: 12-25-2009


    Message 30 of 378 (913154)
    10-14-2023 10:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
    10-13-2023 9:09 AM


    Re: It All Started With the Nakba
    ...Israel inflicts unending suffering and hardship on Palestinians,
    Not to start an argument, (though there will probably be one ) how does Israel do that? I'm referring to pre-October 7th, and all past times of relative peace in that area, what specific ways does Israel inflict this?
    I'm not seeing references to this on the news, including the mainstream news. It seems like aoc and her allies, (who are darlings of the mainstream media) would lay out the details of this, and the news would clearly describe it. I'm not seeing it.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by Percy, posted 10-13-2023 9:09 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by Theodoric, posted 10-14-2023 11:28 AM marc9000 has replied

      
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