Morality without God is impossible

I'm open to anything that can be evidenced. I'm not open to anything that starts with "I believe..." and goes no further.With that 'world view' it's possible to believe absolutely anything at all.So both you and candle claim to believe in the same god but are actually further apart from each other than you and I.But you're not registering the problem If there is such a thing as universal morality, how come we don't all know about it? Regardless of the time we live in.It seems to me that the god of the OT is not behaving within the concept of 'universal morality' and I think you agree.

Define materialist.

If you want some quite impressive evidence that there's no such thing as a universal morality, I just asked ChatGPT for a list of the most immoral acts in the Christian bible. It started, then stopped -"This content may violate our content policy. If you believe this to be in error, please submit your feedback — your input will aid our research in this area."It appears that even AI has a higher sense of moral values than the Christian Bible.

I tried the question, "Are any immoral acts described in the Bible?" and got this:

ChatGPT:

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The Bible contains numerous stories and passages that describe various actions and behaviors, some of which are considered immoral by modern ethical standards. It's important to note that the Bible is a complex and ancient text with diverse content, including historical narratives, laws, poetry, prophecy, and religious teachings. As a result, it reflects the moral values and cultural norms of the times in which its various books were written.

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Some examples of actions or behaviors in the Bible that may be considered immoral by contemporary standards include:

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• Violence: The Bible contains accounts of violence, including wars, battles, and acts of murder. For example, the story of Cain and Abel in Genesis 4 describes the first murder in human history.
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• Slavery: The Bible includes regulations for the treatment of slaves in the Old Testament (e.g., Exodus 21:1-11). While these regulations were intended to provide some protection for slaves, they still condone the practice of slavery, which is now widely considered immoral.
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• Discrimination: In certain passages, the Bible reflects patriarchal and discriminatory attitudes toward women, as well as other groups. For instance, some Old Testament laws and customs treat women as property and restrict their roles in society.
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• Ethical dilemmas: The Bible includes stories and events that present ethical dilemmas and challenges. For example, the story of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac (Genesis 22) raises moral questions about obedience and the value of human life.
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• Harsh punishments: The Bible contains descriptions of punishments for various offenses that may seem harsh by modern standards. These punishments include stoning for certain sins, such as adultery or blasphemy.

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It's important to interpret and understand these passages in their historical and cultural context, taking into account the evolving moral values and ethical perspectives over time. Different religious traditions and denominations may also interpret these passages differently and emphasize different aspects of the Bible's teachings.

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Many people turn to religious scholars, theologians, and ethical frameworks to guide their understanding of how these ancient texts relate to contemporary moral and ethical principles. Additionally, individuals may find moral and ethical guidance in other parts of the Bible that emphasize principles such as love, compassion, justice, and mercy.

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--Percy

I persevered and it finally gave me this:The Old Testament, or Hebrew Bible, is a collection of diverse texts that encompasses law codes, historical narratives, poetry, prophecies, and more. Many stories within the Old Testament reflect the values, cultural norms, and challenges of the ancient societies in which they were written. Some of these stories might seem strikingly "immoral" or troubling when judged by modern standards. Here are some stories that are often singled out as particularly challenging:1. The Binding of Isaac (Genesis 22): God commands Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, as a test of faith. Abraham is willing to go through with it, but God stops him at the last moment. This story raises questions about blind obedience and the morality of divine testing.2. Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19): God destroys the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah due to their wickedness. Before the destruction, the men of Sodom surround Lot's house, demanding to rape his angelic visitors, and in response, Lot offers his virgin daughters to the mob. The themes of mass punishment and the value placed on women in the narrative can be troubling to modern readers.3. Judah and Tamar (Genesis 38): Tamar, after being widowed twice (by Judah's sons), disguises herself as a prostitute to seduce her father-in-law, Judah. She becomes pregnant, and when her condition is discovered, she is almost executed for adultery.4. The Levite's Concubine (Judges 19): A Levite gives his concubine to a mob to prevent them from attacking him. The concubine is raped and left for dead. The Levite then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends them to the tribes of Israel.5. The Plagues of Egypt (Exodus 7-12): God sends ten plagues upon Egypt, culminating in the death of the firstborn of every Egyptian household. This mass punishment affects not just the Pharaoh and his officials but also innocent civilians.6. The Killing of the Canaanites (Deuteronomy 20, Joshua 6-11): The Israelites, under divine command, are instructed to conquer the Promised Land and destroy its inhabitants completely.
Jephthah's Vow (Judges 11): Jephthah makes a vow to God that if he's victorious in battle, he'll sacrifice the first thing that comes out of his house upon his return. Tragically, it's his daughter who greets him first, and he feels compelled to fulfill his vow.These stories (and others) are often challenging for readers who approach the Old Testament from a modern perspective. However, many religious scholars and theologians emphasize the importance of understanding these texts within their historical, cultural, and literary contexts. Additionally, different interpretations and readings can shed new light on seemingly "immoral" actions or decisions, especially when considering allegorical or metaphorical interpretations.It reeled off another list when I asked for more. It seems to have got over it's initial fright.

What? You two get different ChatPriests?

Sure, if you are going to understand it as C2 does. You know that I completely disagree with his views on that. I doubt that AI would advocate for genocide.

Sure, you say this….

GDR:

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Well firstly the Bible isn't simply a book, but is a collection of ancient texts written by an unknown number of authors over numerous centuries and in different circumstances.

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….which is a sentence that I, as an atheist, could have written (and have written many times.) As you say, the Bible is a human construct, clearly reflecting the values of time and the individual's political motivations of those that wrote it and the editors that eventually collated it.
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GDR:

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Personally I understand the Bible as a narrative outlining the progressive understanding of God by the Jewish people with the narrative come to a climax in Jesus.

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The thing that you call a 'progressive understanding' is correct and works completely without the addition of 'of god'. It's a progressive understanding by societies as they evolve and learn to value individuals more.If there is such a thing as a universal morality, you really have to explain why previous societies were not aware of it and some societies today still aren't.

I didn't just say that it is a progressive understanding of the nature of God but also that it was a narrative. With God we can see a beginning, a plot and a climax. It is a story that give life meaning and purpose. Without God it is simply an historical account without any real beginning, without a plot and without a climax. It is simply an account of human history. It does not provide meaning or purpose. I disagree. Again, it goes back to the "Golden Rule" which exists in one form or another in pretty much all cultures whether it is followed or not. As humans with free will, we can push it down to the point that we can lose the memory of it, but it is always there calling us to respond to it.
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I fail to see any problem with this. This is the reality.Any meaning or purpose found is subjective and personal. Note I did not say such is bad as long as one realizes it is self-generated.

True, except that the Bible isn't all history. It mostly isn't so if there is no god then It loses most of its value. It becomes a commentary on social norms of the times.
​ Sure we can come up with our individual meaning and purpose. It might be any number of things, some good, some not so good and some bad. Hopefully we shuffle off with the world being better for us being here but ultimately whenever and however human history grinds to a halt, it will be meaningless.The Christian story is a story with meaning and purpose for our lives.

Those commentaries, god or not, are violently repressive and espouse moralities that, if this still small voice of your god were real, would be to humanities benefit to ignore. You are allowed to fantasize for yourself but not for others.

Sure it a story. Well actually it's an edited collection of mythologies. We have literally millions of stories with beginnings, middles and ends that give us meaning. We like stories.But we don't like feeling that we're not special, that this is all there is and that when we die that it, over. So we make up stories to make us feel better and form institutions and power structures around them. We've done this forever; all those different gods, all those different stories, all those religions and priests. And no-one can agree on any of them.You can't even agree on the Jesus story, the Jews, the Muslims and the Christians all have totally different stories. Isn't that proof of a myth in itself?Life is it's own meaning; you don't need this god thing to give it meaning.

Tangle, I cannot say why GDR believes what he does
about God. But I know why God allows all that He does.God is not trying to save all of humanity during this
present age.He is only calling out those who being offered a place in
His coming Kingdom on earth. They areHe is allowing Muslims, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists,
etc..., to worship in they way they see fit.These people are not now being judged concerning
eternal life.However, some of them have already condemned
themselves. For example, Muslims who hate Christians
so much that they lop off their heads.The first resurrection are for the called. They rule with
Christ in His 1000 year Kingdom on earth.The flesh an blood humans who repent and develop
Godly character during this 1000 years will also join God's
family.All of these, plus those who were in the first resurrection,
will set out to convert all who come up on the second
resurrection.The second resurrection is not a sentencing. It is a time
of judging. They will come back as flesh and blood. This
is a resurrection to correction.God knows the best ways to get humans to turn to Him.The second resurrection consists of all who have ever
lived, with the exception of those who turned their backs
to God's calling; plus those who were incorguable evil, as
well as those who sold their lives to Satan.All of these will be in the third resurrection. They have
already been judged.I look around and see exactly what I would expect from
a world that is basically cut off from God.Remember, Adam and Eve rejected God's guidance. They
were determined to decide what was right and wrong,
good and evil for themselves.God has allowed humans 6000 years to do this for
themselves, with the exception of the called.Matthew 24 tells us that if Christ delayed His return any
longer that we would kill ourselves off. All of us.God then shows us His way.The God that I know will, in His time, reveal Himself to
everyone, including those who practice other religions.He loves us all.

You can tell yourself this story as long as you understand it's just a story.--Percy