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Author Topic:   Church History In Plain Language (5th edition)
Percy
Member
Posts: 22555
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 76 of 90 (912093)
08-13-2023 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by AZPaul3
08-13-2023 2:49 PM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
AZPaul3 writes:
The UN is not effective as an international enforcer. We know that. Why do you bring this up? Did you think the UN was supposed to be the world police?
I think that was the hope. There have been a number of UN military missions over the years, usually made up of troops from multiple countries. Article 42 of the UN charter lists this responsibility of member nations:
quote:
Make available to the Security Council, on its call and in accordance with a special agreement or agreements, armed forces, assistance, and facilities, including rights of passage necessary for the purpose of maintaining international peace and security.
Unfortunately there is a great gulf between the hope and the reality.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by AZPaul3, posted 08-13-2023 2:49 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by AZPaul3, posted 08-13-2023 4:28 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 77 of 90 (912095)
08-13-2023 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Percy
08-13-2023 4:03 PM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
Yes, the UN gives a mechanism. There isn't a viable political structure behind it.
These things need generations of experience and trust-building to evolve. Our generation could not strengthen the world's political integration by the degree many had hoped. Still, I wholeheartedly support the UN's baby steps. The core of a viable world structure is there. Maybe our kids will find the political will to use it.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9257
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 78 of 90 (912099)
08-13-2023 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
08-13-2023 2:37 PM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
There have been many christian warlords.
The Security Council only has a small number of nations.
The rest is too stupid to respond to.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 08-13-2023 2:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 79 of 90 (912103)
08-14-2023 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by AZPaul3
08-13-2023 2:49 PM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
AZ writes:
You are complaining that we presently do not have the organizations to stop Russia, to stop China. Earlier you were arguing that such were instruments of satan.
No international organization should be the police. The early Popes were in competition with secular rulers themselves for power over the state. The early church as described in the Bible never fought itself. From what I read, Jesus Himself never desired to be the king of this world nor did He advocate fighting Rome itself. If you want to see fireworks, imagine a day when the UN opposes the United States! Global consensus does not necessarily equal legitimacy.
In Shelleys book, the early church (after Acts but before Constantine) became progressively more compromising. If everyone agrees, I will start discussing the book specifically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by AZPaul3, posted 08-13-2023 2:49 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Theodoric, posted 08-14-2023 9:43 AM Phat has replied
 Message 81 by Percy, posted 08-14-2023 11:28 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9257
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 80 of 90 (912105)
08-14-2023 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
08-14-2023 9:06 AM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
imagine a day when the UN opposes the United States
Happens all the time. Again, research stuff before you expose your ignorance.
Global consensus does not necessarily equal legitimacy.
So you think the US is the only path to legitimacy?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 08-14-2023 9:06 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-26-2023 9:50 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22555
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.0


(2)
Message 81 of 90 (912106)
08-14-2023 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
08-14-2023 9:06 AM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
Phat writes:
If you want to see fireworks, imagine a day when the UN opposes the United States!
Please, please, please, would you look things up before you post. The U.S. is opposed in the General Assembly on a daily basis. Almost all countries of the world are represented in the General Assembly, and a great many of them oppose at least some U.S. policies. See Thirty Years of Voting in the U.N. General Assembly: The U.S. Is Nearly Always in the Minority.
This information isn't buried or hidden. This was the top response to a Google search. There's an entire Internet out there. Avail yourself of it. Except for YouTube. You think many, many things that aren't true, but your ignorance can be easily remedied. Nobody is asking for researched reports, but you could at least stop sayings things so wrong that they're almost as bad as insisting the moon is made of green cheese.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 08-14-2023 9:06 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 08-14-2023 1:10 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 82 of 90 (912110)
08-14-2023 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Percy
08-14-2023 11:28 AM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
OK, I'll take that as constructive criticism.
What I mean though is that we all should fear the day that the UN has the muscle to stop the US from doing what it wants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Percy, posted 08-14-2023 11:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 83 of 90 (912347)
08-26-2023 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Theodoric
08-14-2023 9:43 AM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
Phat writes:
Global consensus does not necessarily equal legitimacy.
Theo writes:
So you think the US is the only path to legitimacy?
I think that Democracy is the only path to legitimacy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Theodoric, posted 08-14-2023 9:43 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2023 9:57 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9257
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 84 of 90 (912348)
08-26-2023 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
08-26-2023 9:50 AM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
Yet you support christofascists?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-26-2023 9:50 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 08-26-2023 11:06 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 85 of 90 (912349)
08-26-2023 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Theodoric
08-26-2023 9:57 AM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
I do not support secular humanism. The main reason is the anti religious stance.
I support a Christian Democracy, if such a thing is possible.
How often do I have to remind you that I have never voted for Trump no do I intend to.
I do resist the efforts of those who seek freedom from religion. They are not believers.
I think that I prefer a open and public relationship with Jesus rather than a Falwell styled "Majority". Church and State should be seperate but Jesus should by no means be kept out of government or legal justice, if He in fact resides within some of us.
any sort of PRIDE should be pride in our relationship with Jesus and should be freely and openly expressed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2023 9:57 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by nwr, posted 08-26-2023 12:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 87 by Percy, posted 08-26-2023 3:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6414
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


(3)
Message 86 of 90 (912352)
08-26-2023 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
08-26-2023 11:06 AM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
Phat in Message 85 writes:
I do not support secular humanism.
The teachings of Jesus are pretty much the textbook for humanism.
The main reason is the anti religious stance.
Most secular humanists are neutral on religion.
I support a Christian Democracy, if such a thing is possible.
No, it isn't possible.
I do resist the efforts of those who seek freedom from religion.
And this is why "Christian Democracy" is not possible.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 08-26-2023 11:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22555
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 87 of 90 (912357)
08-26-2023 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
08-26-2023 11:06 AM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
Phat writes:
I do not support secular humanism. The main reason is the anti religious stance.
Humanism isn't antireligious, not in the least.
But what Theodoric asked was why you support christofascists. He could have avoided the provocative terminology, but he was only asking why you support christians who are antidemocratic.
I support a Christian Democracy, if such a thing is possible.
I think world history has pretty much proven that combining church and state is a very bad idea. Current examples of just how bad can be found in Iran and Afghanistan.
How often do I have to remind you that I have never voted for Trump nor do I intend to.
Theodoric hasn't mentioned Trump once in the entire thread. Where did this come from?
I do resist the efforts of those who seek freedom from religion. They are not believers.
So you would resist the efforts of those who seek to keep you free from encroachments into your life from Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Mormonism, etc? These religions represent the people you approve of, namely believers.
I think that I prefer an open and public relationship with Jesus rather than a Falwell styled "Majority". Church and State should be separate but Jesus should by no means be kept out of government or legal justice, if He in fact resides within some of us.
You have managed, again, to contradict yourself within a single sentence. You can't have separation of church and state while at the same time incorporating Jesus into government and justice.
Any sort of PRIDE should be pride in our relationship with Jesus and should be freely and openly expressed.
It's a free country. Express your religious beliefs publicly to your hearts content. But if you allow that creche at Christmastime in the town square then you must also allow all other religions to do the equivalent, like a menorah during Hanukkah, a sand art sculpture during Diwali, a Buddha statue during Wesak, and so forth.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 08-26-2023 11:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2023 6:42 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9257
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 88 of 90 (912359)
08-26-2023 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Percy
08-26-2023 3:53 PM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
Phat continues to show his ignorance and hate for those that don't believe as he believes.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Percy, posted 08-26-2023 3:53 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 08-27-2023 3:39 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 89 of 90 (912373)
08-27-2023 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Theodoric
08-26-2023 6:42 PM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
While I admit to some ignorance in my life, I never try and actually hate anyone.
I've been listening to this Church History on my audible over and over and I still have a lot of questions about it. Do you want to discuss it?
Percy writes:
Theodoric hasn't mentioned Trump once in the entire thread. Where did this come from?
I was assuming that Trump was the Elephant
Fascist in the room. I dont think that the Right Wing in general is fascist, though it could be debatable.
Lets focus on Christianity as it bumps up against the Enlightenment, Critical Thinking, and Humanism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2023 6:42 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Percy, posted 08-28-2023 8:17 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22555
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 90 of 90 (912382)
08-28-2023 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Phat
08-27-2023 3:39 PM


Re: War, warlords, Christianity, and Humanism
Phat writes:
While I admit to some ignorance in my life, I never try and actually hate anyone.
We shouldn't make this thread about you, but you do have a tendency to direct hate and resentment, along with attribution of some pretty derogatory attributes, toward many people and groups. In large groups people are pretty much the same everywhere, be they Democrats, atheists, homeless people or migrants, but you seem to have a marked antipathy toward them, especially the unfortunate.
Percy writes:
Theodoric hasn't mentioned Trump once in the entire thread. Where did this come from?
I was assuming that Trump was the Elephant Fascist in the room.
In a thread about church history?
I don't think that the Right Wing in general is fascist, though it could be debatable.
The far right wing is anti-democratic. It's authoritarian tendencies lean toward facism.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 08-27-2023 3:39 PM Phat has not replied

  
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