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Author
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Topic: The Atheist Prayer Argument Is A Dull Generalisation Predicated On INEXPERIENCE
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9603 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.7
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Hey, why not show us a blue ball?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by mike the wiz, posted 08-18-2023 3:36 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 8 by Phat, posted 08-18-2023 7:00 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9603 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.7
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Message 7 of 55 (912165)
08-18-2023 6:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 6 by nwr
08-18-2023 5:57 PM
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nwr writes: What was the point? I think we have to make our own point. I dunno, maybe bet how many posts he makes before he fucks off for another 6 months declaring himself the winner?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by nwr, posted 08-18-2023 5:57 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9603 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.7
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Message 14 of 55 (912172)
08-19-2023 2:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
08-18-2023 7:00 PM
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Re: First You Believe and Then You Are Open To Persuasion
Phat writes: You think we just have miracles documented, verified, and sitting around in a cedar chest awaiting your inspection? What, you don't? What have you been doing for the last 2,000 years? All those billions of Christians generating trillions of prayers per year but you don't have a single verified miracle for us. Dang, us atheists are so unreasonable.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Phat, posted 08-18-2023 7:00 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by Phat, posted 08-19-2023 3:54 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9603 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.7
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Message 17 of 55 (912175)
08-19-2023 6:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
08-19-2023 3:54 AM
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Re: First You Believe and Then You Are Open To Persuasion
Phat writes: You only accept evidence. We accept eyewitness information from ourselves and others.
Eye witness evidence is evidence - it's poor evidence but it's a start. The problem with eye-witnesses miracles is that they're never miracles.
Again, a critical thinker at a church event in which unexplained things happen is more likely to attempt to falsify their experience.
If it can be falsified it's not a miracle is it?
Let me ask you this: In your early days of bells and smells, did you feel safe with the people you were around? I've no idea why you think that's important, I never even thought about it. But looking back from here, I was actually very, very unsafe. All those weird celibate guys in funny clothes playing with little boys.
I would argue that your rational evidence based club makes your mental sanity more comfortable. For sure, I'm not at all comfortable surrounded by grown-ups bowing, keeling and uttering drivel to make-belief sky-daddies.
During the few times when I and others purportedly witnessed a supernatural unexplained event, we were dumbstruck. Critics could argue that we were fooled by conmen who at best were magicians trained in illusion, but the main difference between myself and a critical thinker is that they(you) will attempt to falsify your perceptions whereas I faced the magic to see if it was in any way real. While I would cautiously agree that I could be wrong, you would never admit that you could be wrong. Uh? It's the reverse isn't it? Show me a miracles and I'll change my mind. Nothing is going to change your mind is it?
You may never get the evidence that you require.
Of course I won't - if it existed we'd all be Christians.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by Phat, posted 08-19-2023 3:54 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9603 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.7
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Message 22 of 55 (912273)
08-23-2023 7:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
08-23-2023 6:58 AM
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Re: Is Evidence All That You "Believe" In?
Phat writes: So the next time that someone swears on their Bible that God healed them or God told them something that was unexplainable to them, you quite correctly label it as an article of faith and not science, correct? Without any other evidence, of course. I've been listening all week to Muslins saying that they've been saved from dying on a sinking boat by their god. Failing to mention the others on the boat that god presumably killed. What nonsense.
I can and will argue to defend my faith, but I try not to conflate it with science by definition.
Ah but that's only because you can't isn't it? If you could use science to evidence your faith with miracles and answered prayers you would.
One other thing that I DO believe in is that there are many who, under the name of science, evidence, and critical thinking have an agenda to discredit the Bible in the way that Christians throughout History have believed it to be.
Yeh, it's impudent to ask for historical evidence to support believer's claim about their book. Science and history has a duty to establish what is real and what isn't - it's religion's centuries old persecution complex that calls it an 'agenda'.
You say that replication is a key part of science. This may be so, but IF God exists, He likely won't replicate anything just because a team of scientists require it in order to complete their experiment. Then there's no reason to think that your claims are true.
Hypothetically thinking, your question could be "Why Not"?
Hypothetically thinking, your question could be "Why Not Fairies at the bottom of my garden"?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by Phat, posted 08-23-2023 6:58 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 08-23-2023 9:51 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9603 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.7
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Message 27 of 55 (912292)
08-24-2023 4:59 AM
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Looks like Micky's post was another fire and forget. This is excellent troll work.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9603 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.7
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=MtW]Sorry if I give that impression a few things are at play.
1. I don't like confrontation. As I said recently, I am more of a writer than a fighter. It just seems a forum like this was geared more towards fighting.
2. I try to be an interlocutor as best I can, rather than taking the role of an adversary. You may have misunderstood my intentions because they may appear troll-like.
3. I write in the hopes there are types of people, readers and lurkers, that will be more open-minded, rather than the old crowd that have their minds firmly made up.
4. I have OCD. The less of this stuff I do, the less my brain will torture me. You have history here Mick, we know you. 4,726 posts here and another 5,937 at your very own site so don't give us that crap. If you open a thread here you know that you're supposed to discus and defend your position not shoot and drive on. This is a discussion and debate site, if you just want to preach, find a pulpit or start a blog.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9603 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.7
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MtW writes: Like I say I am a writer, which means I waffle on. I'll grant that you waffle on. So why not stop waffling and give us some actual evidence? You seem to claim that prayer works and that miracles happen, so prove it. It should be really easy to do, why haven't you done it instead of waffling on with your pseudo-philosophical points?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9603 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.7
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MtW writes: I don't claim prayer works in the context of debate, I'm not interested in whether prayer works "in the context of a debate" and I doubt anybody else is, I'm interested in whether prayer works at all.
The point of the topic isn't to try and perform something impossible. Such as provide some evidence that prayer works?
The events of my life can't be repeated. You're right, anything that can't be tested or repeated or directly evidenced if fantastical as a claim makes poor science. It doesn't need to be repeated to be excellent evidence - show me an example of something 'impossible' happening as a result of prayer. Exhibit A an amputated leg that has grown back. Or any similar event of your choosing. I'd accept a bleeding statue of Mary so long as it's proven to be legit.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by mike the wiz, posted 08-25-2023 7:49 AM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9603 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.7
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As you've decided to participate.
MtW writes: Black swans are found in south Australia and Tasmania. Atheists; "I don't know anyone that has seen a black swan in New York, none of my friends do. Indeed if I ask many people from all over the world who I know online they also don't know of any and don't know anyone that does, therefore they don't exist." It would be a rather stupid atheist that argued that way. It's pretty routine here to admit that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, though of course within known bounds it can be. (If you've searched every inch of the dark room for a chair and not found one, it's reasonable to conclude that there is no chair in the room.) The black swan argument is simply a reminder that until everything is known, knowledge remains tentative. No rational person would say that because we haven't yet found a metaphorical black swan, no black swans exist - knowing that we haven't yet looked everywhere.
This is the atheists general argument for prayer. Nope.
The usual argument goes something like this with many of the popular atheist speakers; "children get bad illnesses, parents are praying all over the world, if prayer is real show some scientific proof of it. The truth is prayer doesn't work." (or something like this as an argument)
What is the problem with the argument? Well it depends on the silent-assumption that God is a being made in the image of human reason, that should and would do everything a human being says God should and would do. (not a person filled with biases please note, like if you argue for answered prayer as a believer.) There's nothing wrong with the an argument that says that because there has been no evidence of prayers being answered - despite looking pretty hard - and plenty of evidence that they aren't, the correct conclusion is simply that; there is no evidence that prayers are answered. We await the black swan, although after 2,000 years and trillions of prayers it seems reasonable to reject the hypothesis. Certainly more reasonable than to accept it without evidence. Belief in the efficacy of prayer is simply that; a belief.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 08-18-2023 3:17 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9603 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.7
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Message 47 of 55 (912336)
08-25-2023 1:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 45 by nwr
08-25-2023 1:31 PM
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nwr writes: Yes, mike the wiz has a blog. And it is very preachy Of course he has! He's also the guy that knows the name of every logical fallacy ever created but manages to make them in every post. It's interesting to watch.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by nwr, posted 08-25-2023 1:31 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9603 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.7
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Message 52 of 55 (912634)
09-20-2023 12:06 PM
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You both put a lot of effort into that reply, sadly I suspect that Mik the Troll won't be back.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 54 by AZPaul3, posted 09-21-2023 8:08 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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